extibetanbuddhist dot com

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
emaho
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by emaho » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:39 pm

:thanks: (Though it wasn't my intention to open a discussion about these scandals, maybe in another thread if somebody's interested.)
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

climb-up
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by climb-up » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:46 pm

Challenge23 wrote:
Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:19 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I think that's actually quite fair.

That is not victim blaming, it is just true..typically the people most attracted to those kinds of setups IME are the same people who lack the skills to know when they are being taken advantage of, which of course makes them the prime demographic for recruitment.
Actually that isn't quite true. When you look at the profiles of people who end up belonging to predatory religious sects(I would have researched them for a living if there was any money in it, I've studied them for well over a decade now) was not related to education or skills(there was a wide variety of skill sets and levels of learning and experience).

The primary link is that the vast majority of people who are involved with PRS at the time of recruitment were in a transitional life phase. Students who just got out of school, divorcees, people with children that moved out recently, people who lost their jobs, etc. Oddly enough the absolute best defense against PRS is a mix of being closed minded and in an unshakable routine.
I think this is really interesting.
I sought out explicit Dzogchen teachings in order to understand the very disorienting meditation experience I had. It was so very profound, but I was coming from a place with no real background or support for this type experience.

In the process of seeking out teachings I was VERY aware of being extremely vulnerable, and could easily imagine falling into some type predatory situation if circumstances had been different (the solid grounding of needing to take care of my family helped).
If someone approaches a group sincerely and then has very powerful experiences (as is kind of guaranteed if you're practicing tantric yogas) they can easily be manipulated by a predator.
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:29 pm
Challenge23 wrote:Oddly enough the absolute best defense against PRS is a mix of being closed minded and in an unshakable routine.
That sounds like a pretty good defense against authentic Buddhism too.
That is SO true. Yikes!
Last edited by climb-up on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

climb-up
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by climb-up » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:56 pm

pensum wrote:
Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:43 pm
In the 1870's, Madame Blavatsky and the Theosophical movement popularized Buddhism and Tibet in particular.... So i believe it is important to keep a broad perspective when discussing the "introduction" of Buddhism to the West.
I don't know about the other examples, but you can hardly credit Blavatsky or the Theosophical society with an actual introduction of anything genuinely Tibetan.
Her hidden "Tibetan" Masters were not even Tibetan in her imagination, but a deliberate blind to protect her (real life) teachers. Quoting myself from another thread:
climb-up wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:32 pm
...below is a Facebook post I made
from facebook wrote: To quote Smee, "Lightning has struck my brain!"
I've gone down a rabbit hole of probably 12+ hours of Poke Runyon's podcasts in the past week, but this one got me excited!

He breaks down not only the real history of the hidden master in the Order of Strict Observance, but the history the BLAVATSKY had REAL 'secret masters' (ie. real people such as Ranbir Singh) was Kashmiri, and the Tibetanness and ascendedness were political blinds!!!! (the idea came about partially due to her early involvement in strict observance).

Blavatsky forced the hand of the Golden Dawn and their "secret chiefs", which Crowley also took up ("To Mega Therion" being thought to be an ascended master by many at the time, not a motto/pen-name) and we were off.
GOOD TIMES!!!
Heres the link to the podcast:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/the-hermet ... mes-a-cult

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jkarlins
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by jkarlins » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:38 pm

fascinating that Blavatsky had real teachers, I always assumed she was just making it up. Cool

climb-up
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by climb-up » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:48 pm

jkarlins wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:38 pm
fascinating that Blavatsky had real teachers, I always assumed she was just making it up. Cool
Me too!!! :o

Tenma
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Tenma » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 pm

So you mean those "notorious" magicians were telling the truth? So the comparison with Shambala, Christ's Coming, Krishna's coming, and so on are accurate? What about the Aleister Crowley who practiced occult such as the Key of Solomon and so on? Working with demons, scrying, magic, sex, and so on are of the path?
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Malcolm
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:52 pm

jkarlins wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:38 pm
fascinating that Blavatsky had real teachers, I always assumed she was just making it up. Cool
She met some mongolian geshes and misunderstood nearly everything they taught her.

Malcolm
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:54 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 pm
What about the Aleister Crowley who practiced occult such as the Key of Solomon and so on? Working with demons, scrying, magic, sex, and so on are of the path?
Not our path. Though I personally think Crowley was one of the best of his generation, rascal, though he may have been. 93/93

gb9810
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by gb9810 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:28 pm

emaho wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:47 pm
honestdboy wrote:
Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:17 am
That's interesting reading, but it only mentions the bad side of TB. I prefer Bill Schwartz's Tinfoil page, which is critical but sometimes has something good to say about TB: https://tinfoilushnisha.wordpress.com/
Really? What do you like about this site? I just took a look at some articles at that site and it looks to me like he doesn't even try to be objective.
and that is being generous.. in my view he doesn't even try to be factual these days
(I didn't remember him being so whacked out years ago though; the blogs used to be worth checking once in awhile)

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jkarlins
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by jkarlins » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:52 pm
jkarlins wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:38 pm
fascinating that Blavatsky had real teachers, I always assumed she was just making it up. Cool
She met some mongolian geshes and misunderstood nearly everything they taught her.
Interesting and likely but not was I was talking about, Malcolm. I was referring to what someone said previously about her having teachers she did, more or less, understand, in other traditions.

Tenma
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Tenma » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:52 pm
jkarlins wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:38 pm
fascinating that Blavatsky had real teachers, I always assumed she was just making it up. Cool
She met some mongolian geshes and misunderstood nearly everything they taught her.
Okay, nevermind then. So the comparison of Shambala, Maitreya, the Messiah, and so on are wrong. Got it. :smile:
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Caoimhghín
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:42 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:52 pm
jkarlins wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:38 pm
fascinating that Blavatsky had real teachers, I always assumed she was just making it up. Cool
She met some mongolian geshes and misunderstood nearly everything they taught her.
Okay, nevermind then. So the comparison of Shambala, Maitreya, the Messiah, and so on are wrong. Got it. :smile:
Well, the Messiah is the anointed of God, and Ven Maitreya would probably say that there is no God. So that is one issue I can think of.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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kirtu
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:26 am

smcj wrote:
Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:13 am
mmm, I've actually seen pictures of Dalai Lama with Nazi chiefs and those leaders from some time period.
Hitler sent people into Tibet with some sort of weird agenda about proving Aryan racial superiority. I forget the details.
There were at least two Ahnenerbe expeditions but the people sent were not "Nazi chiefs and those leaders".

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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kirtu
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:30 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:23 pm
smcj wrote: HHDL was very fond and approving of Thomas Merton. So was Chatrul R. I doubt their assessment was dependent on Merton's passing a Madhyamaka quiz.
Approving what sense? You think they approved of his Catholic views? What they approved of was his interest in Buddhism.
Chatral Rinpoche wanted to meet a "Jesus Lama".

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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kirtu
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:39 am

smcj wrote:
Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:06 pm
HHDL has a different priority than that, however.... When he talks about Christianity he talks about Thomas Merton (who evidently had some qualities), not the Pope.
HHDL also does talk about meeting some monks (one in particular) who he felt had good qualities. He asked a particualr monk about his practice and was told that the monk in question meditated upon love.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

gb9810
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by gb9810 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:21 am

kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:39 am
smcj wrote:
Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:06 pm
HHDL has a different priority than that, however.... When he talks about Christianity he talks about Thomas Merton (who evidently had some qualities), not the Pope.
HHDL also does talk about meeting some monks (one in particular) who he felt had good qualities. He asked a particualr monk about his practice and was told that the monk in question meditated upon love.

Kirt
was it from the book "the Good Heart" possibly? (based on his talk at the 1994 John Main Seminar hosted by the World Community for Christian Meditation.)

climb-up
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by climb-up » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:36 am

jkarlins wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:52 pm
jkarlins wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:38 pm
fascinating that Blavatsky had real teachers, I always assumed she was just making it up. Cool
She met some mongolian geshes and misunderstood nearly everything they taught her.
Interesting and likely but not was I was talking about, Malcolm. I was referring to what someone said previously about her having teachers she did, more or less, understand, in other traditions.
Yeah, it's just fascinating that she actually had real life teachers.

Of course nothing she said was Tibetan. I'm surprised that you're saying she actually met any Mongolian geshes, but based on her worldview she would be almost guaranteed to misunderstand everything they said. How could she not.
That was my original point, she can't be trusted as an early source of Tibetan... ...anything!

climb-up
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by climb-up » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:39 am

Tenma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 pm
So you mean those "notorious" magicians were telling the truth? So the comparison with Shambala, Christ's Coming, Krishna's coming, and so on are accurate? What about the Aleister Crowley who practiced occult such as the Key of Solomon and so on? Working with demons, scrying, magic, sex, and so on are of the path?
I'm only mentioning because I think you may have misunderstood one of my posts, but what makes you say this?

Tenma
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by Tenma » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:45 am

climb-up wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:39 am
Tenma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 pm
So you mean those "notorious" magicians were telling the truth? So the comparison with Shambala, Christ's Coming, Krishna's coming, and so on are accurate? What about the Aleister Crowley who practiced occult such as the Key of Solomon and so on? Working with demons, scrying, magic, sex, and so on are of the path?
I'm only mentioning because I think you may have misunderstood one of my posts, but what makes you say this?
Did you not read my change in understanding after having that question debunked?
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

climb-up
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Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com

Post by climb-up » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:47 am

Tenma wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:45 am
climb-up wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:39 am
Tenma wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 pm
So you mean those "notorious" magicians were telling the truth? So the comparison with Shambala, Christ's Coming, Krishna's coming, and so on are accurate? What about the Aleister Crowley who practiced occult such as the Key of Solomon and so on? Working with demons, scrying, magic, sex, and so on are of the path?
I'm only mentioning because I think you may have misunderstood one of my posts, but what makes you say this?
Did you not read my change in understanding after having that question debunked?
I was still curious what made you think it in the first place and if it was based on how I phrased my initial post.

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