Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:03 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:54 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:32 pm
I don't have the text before me, but it was the presentation of the Three Truths, wherein they seem to suggest that the conditioned and ultimate are reconciled into the middle which subsumes them both.
Forgive me for butting in, but what you are experiencing now, is something that I have also experienced, and IMO it is a very common byproduct of some of the ways that the three truths are sometimes described/explained. Case-and-point, you do not believe the above, but at times, it has seemed to me at different times in the past like you were arguing that you did, all the while paradoxically not maintaining that position(!). I do not yet have the text yet, but am getting it soon, I will see if I have a similar experience reading the section.
If I recall that exchange, I was most definitely NOT trying to argue for that... I recall you were... LOL

The complexities of online discussion.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:15 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:54 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:32 pm
I don't have the text before me, but it was the presentation of the Three Truths, wherein they seem to suggest that the conditioned and ultimate are reconciled into the middle which subsumes them both.
Forgive me for butting in, but what you are experiencing now, is something that I have also experienced, and IMO it is a very common byproduct of some of the ways that the three truths are sometimes described/explained. Case-and-point, you do not believe the above, but at times, it has seemed to me at different times in the past like you were arguing that you did, all the while paradoxically not maintaining that position(!). I do not yet have the text yet, but am getting it soon, I will see if I have a similar experience reading the section.
If I recall that exchange, I was most definitely NOT trying to argue for that... I recall you were... LOL

The complexities of online discussion.
I think it has to do with the Madhyamaka neither/nor underlying the 圓融 of the three truths, the 圓融 of the 10 worlds, etc. What to say? Same? Different? Same-but-not-same? One-but-not-one? I recall I quoted something like that from Móhēzhǐguān a while ago. This was when we were having a discussion about suchness, appearances/aspects vs emptiness.

You mentioned a "bone dry Madhyamaka" a while ago, and my ears tingled a bit by-proxy. Perhaps I am one of the guilty parties!

Consider this:

https://jaygarfield.files.wordpress.com ... iporyn.pdf

Is this what you are talking about? I only read it recently myself this week, but I found myself generally agreeing with their critiques of Ziporyn's presentation on occasion, and I myself had thought many of the same things, if being in general more favourable to Ziporyn than them. Furthermore, I am hardly "on a side" vis-a-vis this quoted exchange on ideas. Perhaps you can forgive this heretic if he is polite and repentent!

The paper touches on the same subject matter as our discussion concerning the three truths and their 圓融 interrelation.

I mentioned a while ago in an exchange we were having, the quote from Móhēzhǐguān:

It is unthinkable but true that the three wisdoms are fully present in any single thought. As we have explained above, the three truths are a single truth, but also neither three nor one.

Emphasis mine, obv. I conceive of this same 'unthinkability' as the unthinkability that undergirds the futility of trying to "grasp" emptiness and "grasp" the dharmāḥ. Perhaps even of trying to "grasp" a simple way to properly and straightforwardly linguistically express the interrelations of that which is dependently originated in general.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:14 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:15 pm
Consider this:

https://jaygarfield.files.wordpress.com ... iporyn.pdf

Is this what you are talking about? I only read it recently myself this week, but I found myself generally agreeing with their critiques of Ziporyn's presentation on occasion, and I myself had thought many of the same things, if being in general more favourable to Ziporyn than them. Furthermore, I am hardly "on a side" vis-a-vis this quoted exchange on ideas. Perhaps you can forgive this heretic if he is polite and repentent!
That is pretty funny.

Ng's study of Tiantai is a torch to Swanson's Tientai Philosophy... As far as scholastic criticism goes... I was kind of shocked at how hard Ng ripped into Swanson. And then in Evil and/as/or Good, Ziporyn very quietly endorses Ng in a footnote... it was like "Whoa, the fight is on." This is another fight in this war. Whoa. Garfield et al. are pretty pissed off! LOL

I don't know what Ziporyn wrote in criticism, so can't tell if they are somewhat misrepresenting Ziporyn and creating a scarecrow Ziporyn. But my view of Garfield et al. is that in interpreting Zhiyi, they are not taking into account the substantive message of the Four Fold Teachings, Five Flavors, and Four Siddhanta. Further, I question how familiar they are with the Lotus Sutra and the Nirvana Sutra, specifically, in their place in Tientai, whether explicitly cited or implicit throughout, particularly the truly radical explanation of upaya in the Lotus and echoed in the Nirvana Sutra. Donner and Stevenson in their intro distance Mohezhikuan from the Lotus, but that seems to me a fundamental misunderstanding of Zhiyi. Garfield et al. seem to be suffering the same failure. They seem to be treating this as a scholastic game - Zhiyi was talking about the struggle and path of enlightenment, not some logic puzzle to be solved. The moment that you forget that this is what all those words are about, you have lost any hope of understanding Zhiyi. Zhiyi was not a professor at a modern university. He was a monk doing his best to practice for others and alleviate their suffering. Garfield et al. in their tone and message seem to miss this.

This is what i referred to above in wondering if Ng was reintroducing the mystical aspect of Zhiyi in emphasizing the dynamically functional Middleway-Buddhanature.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:29 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:14 pm

Garfield et al. seem to be suffering the same failure. They seem to be treating this as a scholastic game - Zhiyi was talking about the struggle and path of enlightenment, not some logic puzzle to be solved. The moment that you forget that this is what all those words are about, you have lost any hope of understanding Zhiyi.
Actually, Garfield, et all, are making a very searing observation about Ziporyn's intellectual laziness and lack of attention to detail regarding a very specific point.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:29 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:14 pm

Garfield et al. seem to be suffering the same failure. They seem to be treating this as a scholastic game - Zhiyi was talking about the struggle and path of enlightenment, not some logic puzzle to be solved. The moment that you forget that this is what all those words are about, you have lost any hope of understanding Zhiyi.
Actually, Garfield, et all, are making a very searing observation about Ziporyn's intellectual laziness and lack of attention to detail regarding a very specific point.
"Searing" yeah, no doubt. I don't know how familiar you are with the underlying divide here but, folks take it pretty personally.

Can I ask how familiar you are with all this?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:47 pm

Actually, the tenor of the debate is not unlike something we might find here at DW... albeit a whole lot "smarter"...

:lol:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:04 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:29 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:14 pm

Garfield et al. seem to be suffering the same failure. They seem to be treating this as a scholastic game - Zhiyi was talking about the struggle and path of enlightenment, not some logic puzzle to be solved. The moment that you forget that this is what all those words are about, you have lost any hope of understanding Zhiyi.
Actually, Garfield, et all, are making a very searing observation about Ziporyn's intellectual laziness and lack of attention to detail regarding a very specific point.
"Searing" yeah, no doubt. I don't know how familiar you are with the underlying divide here but, folks take it pretty personally.

Can I ask how familiar you are with all this?
I have not read Ziporyn's book. I read Swanson's mentioned book some time ago.

One difference between Ziporyn and Garfield, is the latter has had a permanent and severe allergy to Dzogchen, which apparently has only recently abated somewhat.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:04 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:29 pm


Actually, Garfield, et all, are making a very searing observation about Ziporyn's intellectual laziness and lack of attention to detail regarding a very specific point.
"Searing" yeah, no doubt. I don't know how familiar you are with the underlying divide here but, folks take it pretty personally.

Can I ask how familiar you are with all this?
I have not read Ziporyn's book. I read Swanson's mentioned book some time ago.

One difference between Ziporyn and Garfield, is the latter has had a permanent and severe allergy to Dzogchen, which apparently has only recently abated somewhat.
If you have the time and inclination, I would be very interested in your take on Ziporyn and the whole subject.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that Garfield would not take to Dzogchen well. Hehe.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Malcolm
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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:33 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:04 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:42 pm


"Searing" yeah, no doubt. I don't know how familiar you are with the underlying divide here but, folks take it pretty personally.

Can I ask how familiar you are with all this?
I have not read Ziporyn's book. I read Swanson's mentioned book some time ago.

One difference between Ziporyn and Garfield, is the latter has had a permanent and severe allergy to Dzogchen, which apparently has only recently abated somewhat.
If you have the time and inclination, I would be very interested in your take on Ziporyn and the whole subject.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that Garfield would not take to Dzogchen well. Hehe.
One thing I am curious about -- is Ziporyn a practitioner, or just a wordsmith?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Queequeg
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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:33 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:04 pm


I have not read Ziporyn's book. I read Swanson's mentioned book some time ago.

One difference between Ziporyn and Garfield, is the latter has had a permanent and severe allergy to Dzogchen, which apparently has only recently abated somewhat.
If you have the time and inclination, I would be very interested in your take on Ziporyn and the whole subject.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that Garfield would not take to Dzogchen well. Hehe.
One thing I am curious about -- is Ziporyn a practitioner, or just a wordsmith?
That I don't know. I've wondered that myself. I think he is more sympathetic. In a certain way, he reminds me of Thurman in the sense that he does not add caveats like, "This is what such and such sutra reads" and instead, "Buddha said...". This could be because he is a practitioner, or because as you suggest, he's sloppy. I don't think its the latter, though. It may be his take on Tiantai.

Even if he is not actually a practitioner, he's not quite a pure scholar, either. By that I mean his "voice" is not the "objective" voice you expect in the academy - its definitely subjective, and my impression is that its very much influenced by Tiantai thought - the way he approaches the subject very much seems to reflect what he is explaining.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:23 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:47 pm
I don't know what Ziporyn wrote in criticism, so can't tell if they are somewhat misrepresenting Ziporyn and creating a scarecrow Ziporyn.
There is some truth to this suspicion of a "scarecrow Ziporyn" in the article. It is quite negative and condemning in tone. In the defense of these scholars, though, Ziporyn does paint something of a crazy-wisdom-Indra's-Net-Tiantai, and I don't say that as a bad thing necessarily. The subject matter he is dealing with is volatile and complicated. One-but-not-one, three-but-not-three. There is a saying among the Anglican seminary students at the University of Toronto, that it is impossible to write a sermon for Trinity Sunday without committing at least 8 small conceptual heresies. Madhyamaka is similarly difficult to describe, IMO, and any thought coming out of the fusion of Tathágatagarbha with Madhyamaka is going to share in that conceptual ellusiveness to being pinned down with any simple language, be it dharmas of enumeration tending toward onesness or multiplicity. Earlier, you mentioned:

Queequeg wrote:Actually, the tenor of the debate is not unlike something we might find here at DW... albeit a whole lot "smarter"...
and I think that is because the very same different preferences towards explaining perceived underlying ambiguities in Madhyamaka undergird many of the arguments one finds on Internet Buddhist forums! I think it is a oneness-plurality disagreement with the three truths that mirrors eternalism-annihilationism disagreements with regards to rebirth. The same sunyavada-dhatuvada that causes dissent among the "Critical Buddhists".

The Critical Buddhists, IMO, would be much benefitted by a close reading of Ven Zhiyi, who offers a reconciliation of their perceived problem with sunyavada-dhatuvada in Mahayana Buddhism that is far more elegant than their occasional "burn the Buddhadhatu" approach.

That being said, that Ziporyn tends towards oneness I think is unambiguous, IMO at least. And this is fine to a certain extent. Ven Zhiyi, after all, cannot even "simply" explain the intersection between emptiness and appearance or dhatu. Three, they are not three. One, they are not one. But he does say they "are" one in addition to not being one. So Ziporyn is not unambiguously wrong. He is just choosing a (valid) but not exclusive angle to explain from.

To prove that he is not a "oneness fundamentalist" of sorts, one can see that he actually does caveat his radical interpretations, albeit those caveats are few and far between, and his books are mostly to do with the holism of Tiantai. One of these caveats is found in Evil and/or/as the Good:

Zhiyi maintains both the identity and the difference between good and evil. The metaphor of a dialogue must necessarily allow for differences in emphasis and focus to coexist with the assertion of the identity of the contents of the dialogue for the two sides- the devil version of the devil-Buddha dialogue differs from the Buddha version, although both sides are completely permeated by both deviltry and buddhahood.
(p. 261)
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:09 pm

Ziporyn's explanation is 'omnicentric holism' not strictly oneness. Rather radically multiple subjectivity. The pigeon hole they stuff Ziporyn into is for the purpose of their own argument. Id say they're trying to establish a one.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:44 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:09 pm
Ziporyn's explanation is 'omnicentric holism' not strictly oneness. Rather radically multiple subjectivity. The pigeon hole they stuff Ziporyn into is for the purpose of their own argument. Id say they're trying to establish a one.
Oh indeed, but in his explaining of that omnicentric holism, IMO and in the opinions (if we soften them) of the authors of the before-lined article, he often drifts into the language of uncomplicated, uncaveated, or "direct" oneness. Once I am off work I can bring up a few quotes to illustrate what I mean.

But he isn't wrong to do so per se! Ven Zhiyi says "one but not one", but in saying to, he also says "one", and indeed, even at the end of his exegesis of the three truths, ends with "in a way one and in a way three" (paraphrase), lending a certain positivism to his definitive phrasing of how he teaches the relations between the truths. Cautiously, I would even say it is "more right" to consider them three identical truths (i.e. the language of radical sameness/oneness rather than radical disparity) than separate principles.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:47 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:44 pm
Cautiously, I would even say it is "more right" to consider them three identical truths (i.e. the language of radical sameness/oneness rather than radical disparity) than separate principles.
Relating to the above, for the sake of ease of clarity, I would like to explain in full.

The three truths:

1)Emtiness - Suchness - cessation of dharmas - Dharmakaya
2)Myriad dharmas - Tathágatagarbha - establishment of dharmas- Path of suffering
3)Emptiness & myriad dharmas in consumate interfusion - True Aspect - union of dharmas - Dharmakaya & Path of suffering at once.

Operating under the "subsumption" paradigm Queequeg alluded to earlier, I hesitate to guess that this is the misunderstanding we are all referring to in various different ways:

1)Emptiness & myriad dharmas in consumate interfusion - True Aspect - union of dharmas - Dharmakaya & Path of suffering at once.
2)Emptiness & myriad dharmas in consumate interfusion - True Aspect - union of dharmas - Dharmakaya & Path of suffering at once.
3)Emptiness & myriad dharmas in consumate interfusion - True Aspect - union of dharmas - Dharmakaya & Path of suffering at once.

The three truths are levelled out to three identical iterations of the 3rd truth, it functioning like the conclusion of a syllogism and "subsuming" the other 2 truths.

The above identical threefold array is not "wrong" per se, it is quite close to the Huáyán understanding as I see it, but it isn't the "fullness" of the "three" truths, I think most can agree.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:09 pm

eg "the 9-fold 3 Truths" in a similar sense of the 10 world mutual possession?

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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:27 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:09 pm
eg "the 9-fold 3 Truths" in a similar sense of the 10 world mutual possession?
What would that look like/contain? Out of curiosity. It sounds like treating the 3 truths as 3 jewels in Indra's Net. It sounds interesting, but what would the 9 iterations look like/mean?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

narhwal90
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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:31 pm

In your prev post it seemed you were working towards a mutual possession sort of argument- each of the 3 contains the other two so three 3's making 9-fold. Using multiplication to convey structural relationship might not be appropriate though.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:45 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:31 pm
In your prev post it seemed you were working towards a mutual possession sort of argument- each of the 3 contains the other two so three 3's making 9-fold. Using multiplication to convey structural relationship might not be appropriate though.
Believe it or not, for all my verbage, if I believe in 3 truths, it is only in that above array, the classical Tiāntāi one (isn't it fascinating that Ven Zhiyi groups Tathāgatagarbha in with the second truth? I have an idea why, but I want to read more before I share it!), versus the 3-identical-truths array.

I think that treating the 3 truths are 3 jewels in Indra's Net will end up producing an equivalent array to the 3-identical-truths array. I think it would look something like this. Prepare yourself for some redundancy!

1. 1)Emtiness - Suchness - cessation of dharmas - Dharmakaya
2)Myriad dharmas - Tathágatagarbha - establishment of dharmas- Path of suffering
3)Emptiness & myriad dharmas in consumate interfusion - True Aspect - union of dharmas - Dharmakaya & Path of suffering at once.
2. 1)Emtiness - Suchness - cessation of dharmas - Dharmakaya
2)Myriad dharmas - Tathágatagarbha - establishment of dharmas- Path of suffering
3)Emptiness & myriad dharmas in consumate interfusion - True Aspect - union of dharmas - Dharmakaya & Path of suffering at once.
3. 1)Emtiness - Suchness - cessation of dharmas - Dharmakaya
2)Myriad dharmas - Tathágatagarbha - establishment of dharmas- Path of suffering
3)Emptiness & myriad dharmas in consumate interfusion - True Aspect - union of dharmas - Dharmakaya & Path of suffering at once.


And the above is reduceable to the exact same 3-identical-truths array from above, and there isn't a need for them to mutually possess each other, since everything according to the above is strictly and absolutely identical. I think. Or maybe its just the 3 truths stated three times.

The above is, I think and in IMO only, essentially Indra's Net, if is not simply a 3fold statement of a 3fold truth. The older Huáyán & newer Zen schools use this metaphysic. It doesn't work alone though, the Huáyán needed to first borrow Daoist Essence-Function polarity (體用二元). Here is a copy-paste from wiki of Daoist Essence-Function polarity (which you can find in the DDJ, etc.):

Absolute | Relative
Straight | Bent
One | Manifold
Identical | Different
Universal | Particular
Noumenal | Phenomenal
Absolute | Appearance
Dark | Light
Real | Apparent
Ideal | Actual


And once they had done that, as this is not a Buddhist discourse, they then transform it (or Buddha-tize it!) into the Four Dharmadhātavaḥ (四法界) or literally "four characteristics of dharmāḥ"

1. 事法界 (shì fǎ jiè): characteristic of matter/phenomenon/event
2. 理法界 (lǐ fǎ jiè): characteristic of principle/law/noumenon
3. 理事無礙法界 (lǐ shì wú'ài fǎ jiè): characteristic the nonobstruction of principle/law/noumenon & matter/phenomenon/event
4. 事事無礙法界 (shì shì wú'ài fǎ jiè): characteristic of the nonobstruction of matter/phenomenon/event & matter/phenomenon/event


With this caveat, Indra's Net "works", I think at least. At least, I think that that is how Indra's Net avoids collapsing into a nondifferentiated bubble. It is a little bit similar to interpenetration.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:15 pm

There's a ton of copy-paste errors above with *Emtiness/*Emptiness as well as *onesness/*oneness. Apologies.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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The Cicada
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Re: Tiantai Zhiyi Magnum Opus Translated: "Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight" (Mo-ho chih-kuan) 3vol

Post by The Cicada » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:36 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:15 pm
There's a ton of copy-paste errors above with *Emtiness/*Emptiness as well as *onesness/*oneness. Apologies.
"All is onesness."


Pithy.

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