Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

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Motova
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Motova » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:31 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:54 pm
Motova wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:33 pm
I think I remember Malcolm saying Devas aren't interested in sacrifices, only hungry ghosts are.
Maybe, but there are many kinds of devas with differing qualities.
Malcolm said Devas generally don't associate themselves with humans because we stink.

Also he said that most spirits people interact with are hungry ghosts.

Perhaps your Master's shout out to the bible god was skillful means.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:50 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:28 pm
Just using 'Jehovah' as a respectful shorthand for YHVH -HaShem, the God of Moses.
It was that same God of whom I was speaking who was once a Heavenly Bull, once the husband of Asherah, etc. At different times at different strands.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

MiphamFan
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:02 am

Indra is more likely to be Zeus/Jupiter than YHWH.

Indra and Zeus are both Indo-European sky-gods, both wield thunderbolts/vajras, both are the rulers of their pantheons (not monotheist), both can be angry, but also kind to those whom they favour. Both overthrew their fathers with the aid of their mothers. Thor has many similarities too but I guess the Germanic tribes thought the sky was less powerful than cunning (Odin).

The worship of Indra and Zeus seem to have both died out at about the same time (destruction of paganism by Christians in the Roman Empire and loss of Vedic deities in India). Indra/Sakra seems to be mainly venerated by non-Brahmanical Indic religions now (Buddhism and Jainism).

YHWH is some Semitic god. Assuming the god of Jesus is really the YHWH of Solomon (doubtful IMO), his worship only spread with the rise of Christianity and Islam. Before that he was just limited to Judaea. Maybe you will say the Muslim god is not the same as YHWH, but many Jews themselves do accept that they worship the same god (although of course they don't accept the way of worship and other parts of Islam) and of course Muslims do. I would think they know more about their own religions than a Buddhist.

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:53 am

Oh yes, I just remembered that some Chinese Christians like to claim that the Jade Emperor is really YHWH.

The Chinese translation for YHWH in Chinese Protestant bibles is "Shangdi", taken from the name of the supreme deity of the Shang Dynasty.

I see no reason to give in to their Semitic myths personally, but YMMV.

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by DGA » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:00 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:53 am
Oh yes, I just remembered that some Chinese Christians like to claim that the Jade Emperor is really YHWH.

The Chinese translation for YHWH in Chinese Protestant bibles is "Shangdi", taken from the name of the supreme deity of the Shang Dynasty.

I see no reason to give in to their Semitic myths personally, but YMMV.
In this context ^^^, then, I have to wonder if Master Hsuan Hua's comments were intended for a specifically Chinese audience, perhaps as a skillful means. Going back to N Week's post:
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:52 am
Here is Master Hua talking about the varied heavens:
The second heaven in the Desire Realm is the Trayastrimsha Heaven. Trayastrimsha (Trayastri) is a Sanskrit word. You don't know what that means? Then let's call it the "Don't Know Heaven." The Don't Know Heaven is just the Trayastrimsha, a Sanskrit word that means thirty-three. Shakra, known as yin tuo la ye (Indra) in the Shurangama Mantra, resides in the center of these heavens. He is the "God" revered in Christianity, and in China he is known as the Jade Emperor. The Book of History (Shu-jing) refers to him as the Supreme Lord and says, "Bathe and observe purity in order to worship the Supreme Lord."

In ancient China no one knew about the Buddha; they knew only about the Supreme Lord. In the Shang Dynasty, Emperor Tang used a black bull as an offering to the Supreme Lord and said, "I, Lü, but a small child, presume to use this black bull in venturing to make known to the Supremely Exalted Ruling Lord that if I have offenses, they are not the people's, and if the people have offenses, the offenses rest with me."

Emperor Tang's name was Lü, and he referred to himself as a small child out of respect for the Supreme Lord. He very sincerely offered a black bull and told the Supreme Lord that if he made errors, the citizens should not be blamed, and that if the common folk of his country committed offenses, the responsibility should rest with the Emperor for not having taught them correctly.

The ancients blamed themselves in that way, unlike people of today who clearly know that they are in the wrong but say, "Don't look at me! It's his fault! How can you blame me?" and complain, "God is unjust.

Why does he confer wealth on others and make me so poor? Why does he bestow honor on some and leave me so wretched?" They blame heaven and curse mankind, looking for faults in others instead of admitting their own wrongs. The ancients acknowledged their own mistakes.
Sounds pretty Jehovah-like to me. Of course, if one is convinced that these Devas are geographically confined or focused to one part of globe Earth - then so be it.

As you might gather, I am not looking at this as a matter of intellectual sharing or influence among humans, but as the actual presence of Devas influencing inwardly our minds - wherever our bodies may reside.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:43 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:00 pm
MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:53 am
Oh yes, I just remembered that some Chinese Christians like to claim that the Jade Emperor is really YHWH.

The Chinese translation for YHWH in Chinese Protestant bibles is "Shangdi", taken from the name of the supreme deity of the Shang Dynasty.

I see no reason to give in to their Semitic myths personally, but YMMV.
In this context ^^^, then, I have to wonder if Master Hsuan Hua's comments were intended for a specifically Chinese audience, perhaps as a skillful means. Going back to N Week's post:
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:52 am
Here is Master Hua talking about the varied heavens:
The second heaven in the Desire Realm is the Trayastrimsha Heaven. Trayastrimsha (Trayastri) is a Sanskrit word. You don't know what that means? Then let's call it the "Don't Know Heaven." The Don't Know Heaven is just the Trayastrimsha, a Sanskrit word that means thirty-three. Shakra, known as yin tuo la ye (Indra) in the Shurangama Mantra, resides in the center of these heavens. He is the "God" revered in Christianity, and in China he is known as the Jade Emperor. The Book of History (Shu-jing) refers to him as the Supreme Lord and says, "Bathe and observe purity in order to worship the Supreme Lord."

In ancient China no one knew about the Buddha; they knew only about the Supreme Lord. In the Shang Dynasty, Emperor Tang used a black bull as an offering to the Supreme Lord and said, "I, Lü, but a small child, presume to use this black bull in venturing to make known to the Supremely Exalted Ruling Lord that if I have offenses, they are not the people's, and if the people have offenses, the offenses rest with me."

Emperor Tang's name was Lü, and he referred to himself as a small child out of respect for the Supreme Lord. He very sincerely offered a black bull and told the Supreme Lord that if he made errors, the citizens should not be blamed, and that if the common folk of his country committed offenses, the responsibility should rest with the Emperor for not having taught them correctly.

The ancients blamed themselves in that way, unlike people of today who clearly know that they are in the wrong but say, "Don't look at me! It's his fault! How can you blame me?" and complain, "God is unjust.

Why does he confer wealth on others and make me so poor? Why does he bestow honor on some and leave me so wretched?" They blame heaven and curse mankind, looking for faults in others instead of admitting their own wrongs. The ancients acknowledged their own mistakes.
Sounds pretty Jehovah-like to me. Of course, if one is convinced that these Devas are geographically confined or focused to one part of globe Earth - then so be it.

As you might gather, I am not looking at this as a matter of intellectual sharing or influence among humans, but as the actual presence of Devas influencing inwardly our minds - wherever our bodies may reside.
This context might be further contextualized here:

It is an attempt by Evangelical Christians (originally missionaries from America, but as 'their dharma' has become 'indigenized' things like this video start to appear) to argue that the traditional religions of China are actually the monotheistic worship of the One True God of Abraham, Isaac, etc. This intersects with a Young Earth Creationist perspective on World History (after all, these Chinese are descendants of Noah after the flood!), as can be seen in that video. Also see "Christ the Eternal Dao", although that text is far less problematic than the above lecture.

Particularly amusing are the numerous "folk", or perhaps 'esoteric Christian', etymologies he gives for Chinese characters, particularly even moreso in later sections of that same presentation, if you can make it through.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Stefos
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Stefos » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:20 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:21 pm
Stefos wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:17 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:04 pm
If Indrajala or anyone else is interested & knows the answer to the queries below, let us hear.

The Heaven of the 33 is ruled by Lord Shakra, King of Gods, also known as Indra, and the God of the Christian Bible. I first ran across this identification of the Xtian God with Shakra-Indra in the teachings of Ven. Master Hsuan Hua.

Three questions (at least) - 1) Where and when did this notion of identity appear in the buddhadharma?

2) Cannot now recall where, but the clear suggestion is that Shakra-Indra-God is a disciple of Buddha. He appears in the first chapter of the Avatamsaka Sutra giving his Dharma door, for example. Where else is there an explicit (or another implicit one) dharma saying so?

3) Does the "Christian God" mean Jehovah of the O.T.?
Hi Nicholas,

1. Indrajala is NOT the God of the Bible

2. Not sure about that

3. "Christian God" is a very vague term actually

When you examine the New Testament carefully, you'll see that there is a Non-duality between God and the believer.
"God's spirit becomes one with your spirit" and also "Before the foundation of the world, we were in Christ."

That's nonduality right there.

Stefos
That's Hindu/Vedantic non-dual monilism of the Self and Brahma not Buddhist non-duality.
You're wrong.......Christian non-duality is not Monism (not Monilism btw :) ) as defined by the Vedantic teachings actually.

Also, In Vedanta, Chaitanya or Pure Awareness is our actual state and THIS accords perfectly with Mahamudra & Dzogchen and
what the Pali texts teach.

Not sure about the other schools of modern Buddhism.

Stefos
:anjali:

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by DGA » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:18 am

Stefos wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:20 pm
Also, In Vedanta, Chaitanya or Pure Awareness is our actual state and THIS accords perfectly with Mahamudra & Dzogchen and
what the Pali texts teach.
Would you mind elaborating on this point a bit? If you have a reference for this idea, it would be helpful. Thanks.

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Stefos
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Stefos » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:50 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:18 am
Stefos wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:20 pm
Also, In Vedanta, Chaitanya or Pure Awareness is our actual state and THIS accords perfectly with Mahamudra & Dzogchen and
what the Pali texts teach.
Would you mind elaborating on this point a bit? If you have a reference for this idea, it would be helpful. Thanks.
Yes DGA.....

So, In the book "Commentary on Anuvada Nunmalai" by Smt. T.R. Kanakammal it says this on page 127:
"In the highest meditation which this text [Sri Devikalottara] and the Upanishads prescribe, the Chit, that Siva, which is to be meditated upon is the Awareness in the subject and the object. It is called Samanya Chaitanyam, "Simple pure Awareness", that is like the sky everywhere. Two sentences next:
"When one contemplates this Space of Pure Awareness totally devoid of all attributes he becomes full of Ananda pervading all directions - that is - he becomes the very form of the space - Awareness."

This is saying that our nature is Samanya Chaitanyam......Simple pure Awareness. Nothing more or less.

Mahamudra & Dzogchen say that our nature is: Shunya and Cognitive Clarity together, not just Emptiness, not just Cognitive Clarity but both.

When someone says "I'm that Emptiness & C.C." you have the ego using words trying to describe the Primordial state, Dzogchen/Mahamudra.
This is not good but is a provisional statement right? After all, teaching using words is useful but not necessary per se as such.

Sarva mangalam
Stefos
:anjali:

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by DGA » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:47 pm

Stefos wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:50 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:18 am
Stefos wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:20 pm
Also, In Vedanta, Chaitanya or Pure Awareness is our actual state and THIS accords perfectly with Mahamudra & Dzogchen and
what the Pali texts teach.
Would you mind elaborating on this point a bit? If you have a reference for this idea, it would be helpful. Thanks.
Yes DGA.....

So, In the book "Commentary on Anuvada Nunmalai" by Smt. T.R. Kanakammal it says this on page 127:
"In the highest meditation which this text [Sri Devikalottara] and the Upanishads prescribe, the Chit, that Siva, which is to be meditated upon is the Awareness in the subject and the object. It is called Samanya Chaitanyam, "Simple pure Awareness", that is like the sky everywhere. Two sentences next:
"When one contemplates this Space of Pure Awareness totally devoid of all attributes he becomes full of Ananda pervading all directions - that is - he becomes the very form of the space - Awareness."

This is saying that our nature is Samanya Chaitanyam......Simple pure Awareness. Nothing more or less.

Mahamudra & Dzogchen say that our nature is: Shunya and Cognitive Clarity together, not just Emptiness, not just Cognitive Clarity but both.

When someone says "I'm that Emptiness & C.C." you have the ego using words trying to describe the Primordial state, Dzogchen/Mahamudra.
This is not good but is a provisional statement right? After all, teaching using words is useful but not necessary per se as such.
I'm not completely familiar with the English terms you are using. By conceptual clarity, do you mean lhundrub?

This is a topic that has come up before at DW. For example, here is a related discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21068&sid=fdc0e9ba ... 4bfee76419

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Malcolm
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:07 pm

Stefos wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:20 pm


Also, In Vedanta, Chaitanya or Pure Awareness is our actual state and THIS accords perfectly with Mahamudra & Dzogchen and
what the Pali texts teach.

No. Vedanta is specifically refuted by Dzogchen tantras, and so is their concept of nonduality.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:25 pm

Stefos wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:20 pm
ItsRaining wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:21 pm
Stefos wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:17 pm


Hi Nicholas,

1. Indrajala is NOT the God of the Bible

2. Not sure about that

3. "Christian God" is a very vague term actually

When you examine the New Testament carefully, you'll see that there is a Non-duality between God and the believer.
"God's spirit becomes one with your spirit" and also "Before the foundation of the world, we were in Christ."

That's nonduality right there.

Stefos
That's Hindu/Vedantic non-dual monilism of the Self and Brahma not Buddhist non-duality.
You're wrong.......Christian non-duality is not Monism (not Monilism btw :) ) as defined by the Vedantic teachings actually.

Also, In Vedanta, Chaitanya or Pure Awareness is our actual state and THIS accords perfectly with Mahamudra & Dzogchen and
what the Pali texts teach.

Not sure about the other schools of modern Buddhism.

Stefos
:anjali:
Stefos is talking about theosis, but theosis isn't becoming 'one' with God in the way that one might become/be 'one' with Brahman (or even in a manner like brahmakāyo brahmabhūto dhammakāyo dhammabhūto). Theosis is only possible because of the complete human nature of Jesus Christ. Complete divine nature & complete human nature in perfect synchronicity. For Christians, this proves that the human nature can be completely conformed to God. By having the self die, and having Christ arise in its place, Christianities with a focus on anchoritic spirituality have the practitioner 'become one with God' by having their human nature become identical to Christ's human nature, in short, they 'become' Christ, but they do not 'become' God.

No orthodox Christian claims that anything can "become" God or that anything 'is' God besides the Trinity & the eucharist. What they are doing is imitating Christ's humanity, and becoming Christ's humanity.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:40 pm

Earlier, when I brought up the point about the Bull of Heaven (named El), Asherah's consort (also El), the leader of the council of Gods (the Elohim), etc. It so point out that this figure, whom we treat as a static figure, arose out of a long history of religious evolution. If there is any such extant deva or celestial being that this figure is based on, which prototype do we choose from?

The Bull of Heaven? Asherah's consort? Jesus?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Stefos
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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Stefos » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:07 pm
Stefos wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:20 pm


Also, In Vedanta, Chaitanya or Pure Awareness is our actual state and THIS accords perfectly with Mahamudra & Dzogchen and
what the Pali texts teach.

No. Vedanta is specifically refuted by Dzogchen tantras, and so is their concept of nonduality.
Hello Malcom.......thank you for contributing,

I take the position of a person who is lacking in particular aspects of Dzogchen and Mahamudra and their contradistinction to Advaita Vedanta and Kashmiri Shaivism.

So........From that point onwards:

Again.........Chaitanya which is to say "Pure Awareness" is the same as Mahamudra/Dzogchen.....I see nothing different.

Furthermore the Nirguna Brahman is Chaitanya.....Not a "deity" or a worldly guardian or a fairy, pixie or sprite or 7up for that matter.
I don't see how this differs from the Primordial State.

Also, What about the Mahamudra view?
The Alayavijnana is none other than Chaitanya itself as Karma cannot accumulate to momentary kalapas/particles.

This is all part of the Tantric mixing, as it were, around the 8th, 9th and 10th centuries in the Area of Kashmir and India & Nepal.

I don't see the "nitty gritty" of the Vedantic or Kashmiri Shaivite view and Dzogchen/Mahamudra view being simply discussed and contrasted anywhere really.

Any input to this effect, Malcolm, would be appreciated sir AS ALWAYS...emphasis mine.

Finally, Can you refer me to a research source which explains how gods like Shiva, Tara, etc. were transformed into lokapalas?
This has zero precedent in the Pali texts, outside of Brahma beseeching the Lord Buddha to turn the Dhamma wheel, and I've only managed to find Mahayana Dharanis on Ganapati actually.

Mangalam,
Stefos

P.S. This becomes rather confusing given the nature of Momentariness in the mix.

A LA LA HO!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Harimoo » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:57 am

Monism is a western philosophical concept.

Litteraly monism is not non-dualism, monism means something is egal to its contrary.

Fo example, in a monist point of view : Self=self, spirit=matter etc.

No traditional doctrine is monistic.

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by Simon E. » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:44 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:40 pm
Earlier, when I brought up the point about the Bull of Heaven (named El), Asherah's consort (also El), the leader of the council of Gods (the Elohim), etc. It so point out that this figure, whom we treat as a static figure, arose out of a long history of religious evolution. If there is any such extant deva or celestial being that this figure is based on, which prototype do we choose from?

The Bull of Heaven? Asherah's consort? Jesus?
Prapanca? :shrug:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by SunWuKong » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:14 am

YHWH is a god from the Babylonian pantheon, the references in early book of Genesis are clear that there are or were other Gods as the time this text was written - it uses the term "we" where the only "we" could be other deities. YHWH seems to be the fire God, associated with magic and Serpent Power as well, its pretty clear in Genesis. Also Abraham was called back to Zion, where humans first left the African continent. So there's a kind of primordial identification about returning to Eden and getting one's Mojo back - it's pretty clear. The obvious link between Moses and what looks like Kundalini manifestation is telling as well, plus the Egyptian magicians seem to grok all that. The Bible from beginning to end is about gaining Illumination and acquiring Miracle Power. I see it for what it is.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: Shakra-Indra as Xtian God

Post by SunWuKong » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:21 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:53 am
Oh yes, I just remembered that some Chinese Christians like to claim that the Jade Emperor is really YHWH.

The Chinese translation for YHWH in Chinese Protestant bibles is "Shangdi", taken from the name of the supreme deity of the Shang Dynasty.

I see no reason to give in to their Semitic myths personally, but YMMV.
Why the Chinese hate the concept of God, human sacrifice to the Shang was China's worst historical memory. It poisons the understanding of Jesus's teaching too - nothing Jesus taught has ever had any value to Christians because they believe also that His sacrifice for our sins is complete unto itself
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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