What is standard of truth?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pmPuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pmYes unfortunately I don't subscribe to Gnostic Elite Weekly. I prefer Cat Fancy.
Do we really hold the mistaken cognitions of ordinary people to be the standard of truth?
Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering
Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
In terms of ascertaining rebirth in direct perception, it is necessary to develop the five abhijñas so that one can personally verify rebirth through one's own experience. Even those these abhijñās are mundane, they are not ordinary in the sense that while they are faculties anyone can develop through cultivating samadhi, few people do.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:50 pmIs it really necessary to build a CERN Large Hadron Collider in my basement in order to convince myself that the Higgs boson particle exists before I start learning about chemistry?
If one wishes to even start practicing Buddhadharma, it is a good idea to have an understanding of the what existential problem Buddhism presents (affliction-driven rebirth) and its solution to that problem.
People who do not accept rebirth are utterly wasting their time studying and practicing Buddhadharma. There is no point to it. If you want to be a "better" person, or have less anxiety, etc., you don't need Buddhism at all.
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Yes, and I'd go further.
If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.
I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
Without the other three noble truths leading to the deathless, life is nothing but poison.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
This is too extreme.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pmYes, and I'd go further.
If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.
I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:50 pmIs it really necessary to build a CERN Large Hadron Collider in my basement in order to convince myself that the Higgs boson particle exists before I start learning about chemistry?
PuerAzaelis I am not quoting this post for any particular reason just wanted to say I enjoy you stirring the pot. Keeps shit honest and a bit more on it's toes.
And I subscribe to rebirth but I realize exactly what your getting at and it's on point so far as people providing weak apologetics.
The weak apologetics reminds me of those lame Christian ones that literally destroyed the tradition. They had this rich corpus of theology and understanding and then these lame apologetics and creationism science started popping up
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
I actually think he is pretty much on point. That is the ethos of Existentialism and they have developed it pretty well. Camus comes to mind.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pmThis is too extreme.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pmYes, and I'd go further.
If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.
I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
Practice, Practice, Practice
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Ok ... in what way?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pmThis is too extreme.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pmYes, and I'd go further.
If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.
I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
As you recently told me, there is not a single pinhead of happiness in the world.
Even if I went through life deliriously happy all the time, I would in fact really be suffering, as long as my volition was involved.
If i were to say - The three poisons are what are extreme. They are killers. Refuge is a matter of life and death.
That would either be the case or not. Practicing like your hair on fire is either a charming medieval anachronism or it isn't.
You want me to subscribe to Gnostic Elite Weekly but now ... are you going wobbly on the basics?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Your statement is premised on the acceptance of the irrational, but you have not shown that accepting rebirth is irrational.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:39 pmOk ... in what way?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pmThis is too extreme.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pm
Yes, and I'd go further.
If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.
I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Until I see the pink hippo in my attic, I take its existence on faith. That is, until something has been proven to me using either induction or deduction, I accept it on faith.
Are you saying that proving rebirth via induction is not only possible to do for a beginning practitioner, but necessary?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Of course. What would be the point of wanting to attain buddhahood unless one wants to be free of birth? If one does not accept rebirth, there is no need for Buddhadharma at all.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:52 pm Are you saying that proving rebirth via induction is not only possible to do for a beginning practitioner, but necessary?
Rebirth is central existential problem the Buddha wanted to solve.
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Um, yes ... I agree.
However, that is not the same as asserting that rebirth must be proven, using induction, to a beginning practitioner.
In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.
It is a matter of placing trust in a view, which then is practiced.
If this were not the case then we could all just reason our way to immortality.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
The old Dharmakīrti heuristicPuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:03 pm
In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.
All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.
Some people instinctively accept rebirth. For them, this chain of reasoning is superfluous.
Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pmThe old Dharmakīrti heuristicPuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:03 pm
In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.
All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.
Some people instinctively accept rebirth. For them, this chain of reasoning is superfluous.
I've studied a bit of philosophy of mind and I think this is kind of weak.
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Shockingly, the old Dharmakirti heuristic appears to have the same issues as the old Descartes heuristic.
I could poke as many holes in this as I could with Aquinas' "proofs" for the existence of God.
... and once again the pink hippos are flying. Enjoy, everyone ...
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Omg is that gif amazing lmaoPuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:25 pmShockingly, the old Dharmakirti heuristic appears to have the same issues as the old Descartes heuristic.
I could poke as many holes in this as I could with Aquinas' "proofs" for the existence of God.
... and once again the pink hippos are flying. Enjoy, everyone ...
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:25 pmShockingly, the old Dharmakirti heuristic appears to have the same issues as the old Descartes heuristic.
I could poke as many holes in this as I could with Aquinas' "proofs" for the existence of God.
Please try. You make a lot of assertions, but offer up nothing in terms of proofs and reasonings. Get serious or get along.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
CedarTree wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:15 pmMalcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pmThe old Dharmakīrti heuristicPuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:03 pm
In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.
All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.
Some people instinctively accept rebirth. For them, this chain of reasoning is superfluous.
I've studied a bit of philosophy of mind and I think this is kind of weak.
Because?
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
No. But since I trust you, and I know you wuv me, I'll take it on faith for now.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:42 pmNo. But since I trust you, and I know you wuv me, I'll take it on faith for now.
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?
Fine.
I got a thing about chickens.
Malcolm, you re-state Dharmakirti's argument as follows:
There has to be some argument he makes somewhere that tries to prove that mind does not have a material cause.
I got a thing about chickens.
Malcolm, you re-state Dharmakirti's argument as follows:
This cannot be his full argument, since there is no premise or argument that shows that the mind does not arise from matter.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.
There has to be some argument he makes somewhere that tries to prove that mind does not have a material cause.
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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