Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:43 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:34 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:29 pm
Twins ( and earthworms ) are entirely separate individuals. Even identical twins have major differences in temperament and sometimes in ability.
As to earthworms I wonder whether you are referring to the myth that if cut in half they grow a new half..?
If so it IS a myth. The back end always dies quickly because it has no mouthparts.
The front half sometimes survives for a while if the wound heals successfully..but usually also dies quickly.
I didn't know it was am myth, thanks.
But in the case of twins, they do split after conception, so....
Yes, because two consciousnesses simultaneously are conceived in the same red and white elements, which then split the embryo due to vāyu. It is not a case where one consciousness splits into two.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:43 pm
Yes, because two consciousnesses simultaneously are conceived in the same red and white elements, which then split the embryo due to vāyu. It is not a case where one consciousness splits into two.
Sounds good, thanks.
But I can't figure out what " split the embryo due to vāyu" means...?

ydnan321
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:14 am

Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:14 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:07 pm
The idea of fragmented souls comes from Hinduism and I believe also Jainism; not sure about Taoism.
ydnan321 wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:28 pm
In some other articles I read, he mentioned that these fragmented souls would need to join together again to take rebirth at a higher forms (e.g. multiple roosters' souls need to be integrated together to reborn as a horse, then multiple horse's souls then integrate to be a human.)
How would the mechanics of karma make that even work? The different animals that need to combine don't die at the same time. And then each animal accumulates his/her own karma and karmic results. The individual mind streams of Buddhism make more sense.

The Buddhist suttas/sutras always refer to individuals, with the Buddha mentioning things like: this monk went to this realm; this nun went to that realm; this butcher was reborn to this woeful existence, etc etc.
Hi, I’ve thought of that too though I’m not sure if animals generate their own karma? Would you be able to share references to that ? And then I thought about if it’s possible for these animals to share one central “vault” of karma that somehow metaphysically linked? Actually, this idea has caused me to think of all sort of crazy things and I am certainly deluded. I wanted to stop but the doubt is still within me, not sure how/if I could get rid of it. Also, any references to the single mindstream of Buddhism?
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:07 am
ydnan321 wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:05 am
Sorry, I’m still stuck on this, would be grateful if anyone could provide explanation stating why multiplicity of animal rebirths is not possible using scripture or well-known master’s accounts/references? Links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

YN
It is not possible. If you would do your own research, you will come to this conclusion and will have no further doubt about.
I’ve tried researching on my own though never really got down to a complete resolution and seemed like the more I tried the more exhausted and frustrated I got. I will continue with my research when possible. On the other hand, any contribution in the forum on this, hopefully with references, to help me get over this is deeply appreciated.

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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:16 pm

ydnan321 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:14 pm

I’ve tried researching on my own though never really got down to a complete resolution and seemed like the more I tried the more exhausted and frustrated I got. I will continue with my research when possible. On the other hand, any contribution in the forum on this, hopefully with references, to help me get over this is deeply appreciated.
Examine Yogacara explanations for why mind streams are unique and separate, even if there are no external objects.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Javierfv1212
Posts: 118
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Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Javierfv1212 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:59 pm
Matt J wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:53 pm
I wonder how the multiple tulku phenomenon fits into the discussion.
There is no canonical basis for the idea of reincarnations of body, speech, mind, etc.

That said, there is canonical basis for bodhisattvas having exponentially more emanations from the first bhumi one ward which increase by powers of ten, thus a tenth stage bodhisattva can have 100,000,000,000,000,000,000, i.e. one hundred septillion emanations.

And every Buddha has an emanation in every world in a given billion-world universe (1000 to the third power).
Malcom, so what is the difference between a mindstream's emanation and a mindstream's rebirth?

Is the rebirth the "main" stream if you will, and the emanations like the secondary branchings of a river? Like once an emanation has emanated, it is its own mindstream with its own karma, even if it has a connection with the previous "main" stream?
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
~Padmasambhava

Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One would not posit as categorically true or false
anything seen, heard, or sensed, clung to and considered truth by others.
Since they have already seen this dart to which people cling and adhere,
saying “I know, I see, it is just so,”
the Tathāgatas cling to nothing.
-Kalaka sutta

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 1969
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Earthworms and twins

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:43 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:34 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:29 pm
Twins ( and earthworms ) are entirely separate individuals. Even identical twins have major differences in temperament and sometimes in ability.
As to earthworms I wonder whether you are referring to the myth that if cut in half they grow a new half..?
If so it IS a myth. The back end always dies quickly because it has no mouthparts.
The front half sometimes survives for a while if the wound heals successfully..but usually also dies quickly.
I didn't know it was am myth, thanks.
But in the case of twins, they do split after conception, so....
Yes, because two consciousnesses simultaneously are conceived in the same red and white elements, which then split the embryo due to vāyu. It is not a case where one consciousness splits into two.
What are the causes of having a twin?

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DiamondMeru
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:24 pm

Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by DiamondMeru » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:39 am

ydnan321 wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:28 pm
Well, when I read the article below I was quite bewildered - Master Hsuan Hua basically said that a person would go through rebirth as multiple animals or plants simultaneously due to his 'soul' being fragmented. In some other articles I read, he mentioned that these fragmented souls would need to join together again to take rebirth at a higher forms (e.g. multiple roosters' souls need to be integrated together to reborn as a horse, then multiple horse's souls then integrate to be a human.)

Controversial and contradictory as it sounds to me, I have not been able to convince myself to disregard this notion - being fragmented into multiple animals and even plants - and it's been bothering me. The fact that he mentioned this came from his "Five Eyes" capability. My search to invalidate this to convince and calm my mind has been to no avail. I sure hope someone who is knowledgeable enough could present accounts from the Buddha and/or other masters to help me with this matter. Much appreciated.

http://www.dharmasite.net/BuddhaRootFarm/
The Venerable Master Hsuan-Hua comments:
Question: "When you eat one bowl of rice, you take the life of all the grains of rice, whereas eating meat you take only one animal's life.
The Master: On the body of one single animal are a hundred thousand, in fact, sever million little organisms. These organisms are fragments of what was once an animal. The soul of a human being at death may split up to become many animals. One person can become about ten animals. That's why animals are so stupid. The soul of an animal can split up and become, in its smallest division, an organism or plant. The feelings which plants have, then, are what separated from the animals's soul when it split up at death. Although the life force of a large number of plants may appear sizeable, it is not as great as that of a single animal or a single mouthful of meat. Take, for example, rice: tens of billions of grains of rice do not contain as much life force as a single piece of meat. If you open your Five Eyes you can know this at a glance. If you haven't opened your eyes, no matter how one tries to explain it to you, you won't understand. No matter how it's explained, you won't believe it, because you haven't been a plant!
"Another example is the mosquitoes. The millions of mosquitoes on this mountain may be simply the soul of one person who has been transformed into all those bugs. It is not the case that a single human soul turns into a single mosquito. One person can turn into countless numbers of mosquitos.

"At death the nature changes, the soul scatters, and its smallest fragments become plants. Thus, there is a difference between eating plants and eating animals. What is more, plants have very short lifespans. The grass, for example, is born in the spring and dies within months. Animals live a long time. If you don't kill them, they will live for many years. Rice, regardless of conditions, will only live a short time. And so, if you really look into it, there are many factors to consider, and even science hasn't got it all straight." (Buddha Root Farm, 64)
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Sounds to me like the Buddhist version of The Law of the Conservation of Energy: energy is neither created destroyed, it merely changes from one form into another.
I would imagine that a death of an animal left to decompose in the wild would give its energy to scavengers and thus transpose energy or soul fragmentation to the next organism that eats it. Granted their is no animal self that becomes a plant just mineral rich soil thriving from the micro-organism that ingested previous dead animal.

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