Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

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PeterC
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Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by PeterC » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:42 am



A controversial topic. I would appreciate any perspectives on this - I found the talk fascinating, but I’m not a specialist

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Dragpo
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by Dragpo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:49 am


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Stefos
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by Stefos » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:42 am


A controversial topic. I would appreciate any perspectives on this - I found the talk fascinating, but I’m not a specialist
Hi,

I have not seen the video but can say that originally, "Hatha Yoga" meant only the
cleaning of the nasal passages, throat, stomach, intestines and colon.

What it is today is more than likely the convergence of the Tantrics who gathered together and shared information.

Remember, Polemics you read in the Tibetan schools don't necessarily reflect how the "Hindu" and Buddhist Tantrics actually interacted with one another.
They weren't arguing about Shunya, Awareness and Momentariness..........They were doing their sadhanas and shared openly.

I believe that the Samaya vows only happened later. The teaching of Buddha Shakyamuni, early Buddhist schools, Mahasamghikas and Mahayana never enacted or enforced a samaya.

Of course Samaya vows are different then the plain withholding of information regarding the Subtle energy system of the body which doubtlessly happened too. They have their place insofar as transmission is concerned.

Stefos

PeterC
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by PeterC » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:45 am

Stefos wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 pm
PeterC wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:42 am


A controversial topic. I would appreciate any perspectives on this - I found the talk fascinating, but I’m not a specialist
Hi,

I have not seen the video but ...
Would recommend watching the video. It's long, but worthwhile. The presenter takes as his starting point copies of the Amrtasiddhi that can be dated to before the appearance of corresponding practices in the non-Buddhist yogic traditions, and a review of the earliest occurrence of the term 'hathayoga' in any texts, noting that it occurs in Buddhist texts first. The following discussion suggests some inferences about the origins of the Naths that many Sanskrit scholars will not like.

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kirtu
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by kirtu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:52 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:45 am
The following discussion suggests some inferences about the origins of the Naths that many Sanskrit scholars will not like.
Buddhist yogis became Naths. That isn't so controversial. Was there something else?

Kirt
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amanitamusc
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:09 am

PeterC wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:42 am


A controversial topic. I would appreciate any perspectives on this - I found the talk fascinating, but I’m not a specialist
Greg?

ItsRaining
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by ItsRaining » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:32 am

kirtu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:52 am
PeterC wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:45 am
The following discussion suggests some inferences about the origins of the Naths that many Sanskrit scholars will not like.
Buddhist yogis became Naths. That isn't so controversial. Was there something else?

Kirt
How did this happen? Is there anything to read about this?

PeterC
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by PeterC » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:29 am

ItsRaining wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:32 am
kirtu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:52 am
PeterC wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:45 am
The following discussion suggests some inferences about the origins of the Naths that many Sanskrit scholars will not like.
Buddhist yogis became Naths. That isn't so controversial. Was there something else?

Kirt
How did this happen? Is there anything to read about this?
I know it's long, but watch the video. He tries to identify the locations where this happened and assemble some of the extant archeological evidence for it. It's only not controversial if you're a Buddhist practitioner who accepts the canonical position that the elements shared with non-Buddhist sects (e.g. the Yoginitantras) were not appropriations by Buddhism. (I happen to accept that canonical position, but most academics working on this topic don't, which is why it's nice to see one who advances that argument.)

tingdzin
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by tingdzin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:26 am

Three books with widely varying perspectives on this stuff could be read usefully: Davidsons Indian Esoteric Buddhism, Samuel's Origin of Yoga and Tantra and Wedemeyer's Making Sense of Tantric Buddhism. It's all quite complex and the answers a re still up in the air.

tingdzin
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by tingdzin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:31 am

Three books with widely varying perspectives on this stuff could be read usefully: Davidsons Indian Esoteric Buddhism, Samuel's Origin of Yoga and Tantra and Wedemeyer's Making Sense of Tantric Buddhism. It's all quite complex and the answers a re still up in the air.

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Sādhaka
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Re: Buddhist tantra as origin for hathayoga

Post by Sādhaka » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:36 am

Well the Buddhadharma/Bön was here in previous eons before "Hinduism" appeared within this cycle.

Therefore of course the Yogas originally come from the Buddhas rather than Hindu tirthika gods.

Now Hindus are our closest allies, if only due to the fact that the Shakyamuni Buddha appeared in this cycle within the "Hindu" milieu.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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