Confusion

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Tenma
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Confusion

Post by Tenma » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:04 pm

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Vasana
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Vasana » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:11 pm

Tenma wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:19 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:16 pm
I have never heard of meditation creating suicidal thoughts. What kind of meditation are you doing? Are you first generating bodhicitta?

Yes, but during samadhi, it goes wrong. All things are delusions, but the idea of the body being a delusion sometimes gives the idea of suicide and no point in life.


Others have already recommended speaking to a councillor so i won't go there again. Are you absolutely sure your suicidal thought is purely the result of thinking about the idea of the body being an illusion?

If so and if his has happened mutliple times then don't you think it should be an extremely high priority of yours to learn what the Dharma *actually* says about the body and it's central role in being able to hear, practice and realize the dharma? This is why study is so important in the beginning. If you think the teachings on illusion conclude with the justification of suicide, then you have developed a nihilistic view of emptiness. This is a wrong view, Tenma. The middle way is neither nihlistic nor eternalistic.

Please read;

Eighteen freedoms and advantages

Eighteen freedoms and advantages (Wyl. dal 'byor bco brgyad) — the eight freedoms and ten advantages which characterize a 'precious human birth'.

The Eight Freedoms

Freedom from the eight states where there is no opportunity to practise the Dharma:

hells
preta realms
animals
long-living gods
uncivilized lands
incomplete faculties
with wrong views
a buddha has not come

Commentary

Chökyi Drakpa says:

"Firstly, if you were born in the hell, preta or animal realms, you would suffer from intense heat and cold, from hunger and thirst, or from enslavement, and it would be impossible for you to practise the Dharma. If you were born amongst the long-living gods, it would also be impossible because you would not have any thought of practising the Dharma. The Buddha’s teachings are not found in uncivilized lands of the border regions, so living there is also an impossible state. Those with wrong views do not have any possibility of practising the Dharma because their minds are contaminated by false beliefs, and they are just like Devadatta or Lekpé Karma. If you were born in a world where a buddha had not come, or during a dark kalpa, it would be impossible because even the words “Three Jewels” would be unknown. If you were born incapable of understanding, it would be impossible to practise the Dharma because you would not be able to understand the meaning of the teachings. When you have a physical body that is free from these 'eight states where there is no chance for Dharma practice', it is known as possessing a support for Dharma practice complete with the eight freedoms."

Recently, we resulted in this. And I'm very confused now with the Mahayana teachings. In the Mahayana teachings, it says that hell and the Buddha's paradise are one and the same. How is it that realizing all things as equal in emptiness a wrong view? I'm very confused now. Aren't all things delusions? How is it that Milarepa taught this, yet reached enlightenment?
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Lhasa
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Re: Confusion

Post by Lhasa » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:22 pm

Tenma, you asked me a question in the locked thread about the 2nd Tara. Write to Tara Mandala and ask them directly, they respond and are quite friendly. info@taramandala.org

Tenma wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:04 pm
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Vasana
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Vasana » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:11 pm

Tenma wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:19 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote: ↑
Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:16 pm
I have never heard of meditation creating suicidal thoughts. What kind of meditation are you doing? Are you first generating bodhicitta?

Yes, but during samadhi, it goes wrong. All things are delusions, but the idea of the body being a delusion sometimes gives the idea of suicide and no point in life.


Others have already recommended speaking to a councillor so i won't go there again. Are you absolutely sure your suicidal thought is purely the result of thinking about the idea of the body being an illusion?

If so and if his has happened mutliple times then don't you think it should be an extremely high priority of yours to learn what the Dharma *actually* says about the body and it's central role in being able to hear, practice and realize the dharma? This is why study is so important in the beginning. If you think the teachings on illusion conclude with the justification of suicide, then you have developed a nihilistic view of emptiness. This is a wrong view, Tenma. The middle way is neither nihlistic nor eternalistic.

Please read;

Eighteen freedoms and advantages

Eighteen freedoms and advantages (Wyl. dal 'byor bco brgyad) — the eight freedoms and ten advantages which characterize a 'precious human birth'.

The Eight Freedoms

Freedom from the eight states where there is no opportunity to practise the Dharma:

hells
preta realms
animals
long-living gods
uncivilized lands
incomplete faculties
with wrong views
a buddha has not come

Commentary

Chökyi Drakpa says:

"Firstly, if you were born in the hell, preta or animal realms, you would suffer from intense heat and cold, from hunger and thirst, or from enslavement, and it would be impossible for you to practise the Dharma. If you were born amongst the long-living gods, it would also be impossible because you would not have any thought of practising the Dharma. The Buddha’s teachings are not found in uncivilized lands of the border regions, so living there is also an impossible state. Those with wrong views do not have any possibility of practising the Dharma because their minds are contaminated by false beliefs, and they are just like Devadatta or Lekpé Karma. If you were born in a world where a buddha had not come, or during a dark kalpa, it would be impossible because even the words “Three Jewels” would be unknown. If you were born incapable of understanding, it would be impossible to practise the Dharma because you would not be able to understand the meaning of the teachings. When you have a physical body that is free from these 'eight states where there is no chance for Dharma practice', it is known as possessing a support for Dharma practice complete with the eight freedoms."

Recently, we resulted in this. And I'm very confused now with the Mahayana teachings. In the Mahayana teachings, it says that hell and the Buddha's paradise are one and the same. How is it that realizing all things as equal in emptiness a wrong view? I'm very confused now. Aren't all things delusions? How is it that Milarepa taught this, yet reached enlightenment?

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Vasana
Posts: 1713
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Re: Confusion

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:24 pm

Recently, we resulted in this. And I'm very confused now with the Mahayana teachings. In the Mahayana teachings, it says that hell and the Buddha's paradise are one and the same. How is it that realizing all things as equal in emptiness a wrong view? I'm very confused now. Aren't all things delusions? How is it that Milarepa taught this, yet reached enlightenment?
For a Buddha, everything is primordially pure. Like an island of gold with no regular dirt or pebbles. In emptiness, everything is primordially pure. Sentient beings are sentient beings because they have not yet realized this unborn purity. An intellectual understanding that everything is empty is not the same as a Bodhisattva's or Buddha's direct cognition and knowledge of this.

When ever you hear things like 'samsara and nirvana are the same' or that 'hell realms are pure lands' this is from the perspective of Buddhahood and highly realized Bodhisattvas and not an experiential fact about beings still on the paths of accumulation* and beings who are not even on any dharma path (hell beings, pretas, uninterested humans etc). Otherwise, everyone would already be enlightened but evidently, beings still experience all kinds of suffering so this is not the case.


* http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... s-and-path
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Vasana
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Re: Confusion

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:47 pm

tenma, you're young and still in an educational environment and are devoted to Saraswati so you will be at a great advantage if you focus on learning the dharma correctly rather than jumping too soon in to practices you don't actually understand the foundations of adequately let alone the nuances. The sooner we eliminate wrong views, the sooner our practice develops. Correct meditation follows correct view just as theory informs practice in any field. Practicing with incorrect views (like a nihlistic view of emptiness or not knowing what affliction means in Buddhism) will mean your practice can only ever bring limited results. Just as you learn your subjects at school/uni for multiple years, the dharma is no different and requires us to study and find out what our gaps of understanding are. This is a lifelong process.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: Confusion

Post by SunWuKong » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:35 am

Just because it's samadhi does not mean it's right. The texts are very clear that there are good and bad samadhis. You'll need to find someone to help you sort this out. Good luck on that. But just because something is samadhi does not make it a good thing. :pig:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Quay
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Re: Confusion

Post by Quay » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:12 am

I think it is good to always keep in mind that emptiness is not nothingness.

If you find yourself in a nihilistic place, where all seems delusion then it's probably not a good place to remain. Things may indeed be illusions, instead of delusions, but that is the beginning of wisdom not the end of the path. There is so much more. Working on establishing a firm foundation in correct views is essential and as others have said a lifelong endeavor. But completely, unquestionably worth it.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Grigoris
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Re: Confusion

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:16 pm

I am going to have to shut down this metadiscussion.

Like I said in the locked thread: Tenma has plenty of information and advice to mull over, digest and apply, if that is her intention.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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