What's an emanation?
Re: What's an emanation?
Hi
It seems that emanation of Buddha is similar to the idea of avatar?
Thomas
It seems that emanation of Buddha is similar to the idea of avatar?
Thomas
Re: What's an emanation?
I'm not sure. Would you say a bit about what you mean by the idea of an avatar?
In Chapter 11 of the Lotus Sutra, a myriad of emanations from Buddha Shakyamuni are described. These are sometimes translated as his "replicants" or "division-body Buddhas" or "Tathagata-frames." Sometimes translations can be wonky. Anyway here are two different versions for you to consider.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot11.htm
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus11.htm
Does that look like an avatar to you?
Re: What's an emanation?
I have to say it does look like an avatar. That is, various avatars or incarnations of a Buddha.DGA wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:31 pmI'm not sure. Would you say a bit about what you mean by the idea of an avatar?
In Chapter 11 of the Lotus Sutra, a myriad of emanations from Buddha Shakyamuni are described. These are sometimes translated as his "replicants" or "division-body Buddhas" or "Tathagata-frames." Sometimes translations can be wonky. Anyway here are two different versions for you to consider.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot11.htm
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus11.htm
Does that look like an avatar to you?
Re: What's an emanation?
There are no avatars of a Buddha. You are conflating concepts from the Vedanta and Buddhadharma.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: What's an emanation?
Emanations..yes.
Avatars..no.
Buddhadharma does not recognise the reality of Avatara, because it denies the existence of that which would 'descend'.
Buddhas, even the loftiest and most transcendent, were once not Buddhas.
An Avatar is a separate order of being, self-creating and godlike, who takes human form for a duration.
This is an idea from the cluster of ideologies called in the west 'Hinduism'.
It is not found in Buddhdharma. In fact it is explicitly denied.
Avatars..no.
Buddhadharma does not recognise the reality of Avatara, because it denies the existence of that which would 'descend'.
Buddhas, even the loftiest and most transcendent, were once not Buddhas.
An Avatar is a separate order of being, self-creating and godlike, who takes human form for a duration.
This is an idea from the cluster of ideologies called in the west 'Hinduism'.
It is not found in Buddhdharma. In fact it is explicitly denied.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: What's an emanation?
Simon E. is correct with regard to avatars in Hinduism and Buddhadharma.
There are other ideas of avatars out there, in science fiction and new age thinking and films my mother-in-law likes. I don't know about these ideas; maybe they are comparable? It's probably not helpful to go out in the weeds like that looking for comparisons.
I think it's more productive to consider what these emanations are about as described in the Sutra. There are practical implications to this.
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Re: What's an emanation?
In another sense, an emanation is one of the siddhis or powers of a bodhisattva or buddha.
From Princeton Dictionary of Buddhismself-manifesting (he has the power to make his body appear as multiple emanations; nengshi yishen wei duoshen)
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: What's an emanation?
Avatar also is 'self-manifesting'Nicholas Weeks wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:57 pm In another sense, an emanation is one of the siddhis or powers of a bodhisattva or buddha.
From Princeton Dictionary of Buddhismself-manifesting (he has the power to make his body appear as multiple emanations; nengshi yishen wei duoshen)
Re: What's an emanation?
Emanations of a Buddha also is a separate order of being, self-creatingSimon E. wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:58 pm Emanations..yes.
Avatars..no.
Buddhadharma does not recognise the reality of Avatara, because it denies the existence of that which would 'descend'.
Buddhas, even the loftiest and most transcendent, were once not Buddhas.
An Avatar is a separate order of being, self-creating and godlike, who takes human form for a duration.
This is an idea from the cluster of ideologies called in the west 'Hinduism'.
It is not found in Buddhdharma. In fact it is explicitly denied.
Re: What's an emanation?
I think you need acquaint yourself with a few basic concepts Thomas..
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: What's an emanation?
What's the point of discussing one individuals action in this manner? Rory's an educated person and can speak for herself.DGA wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:32 am I'm bringing up this topic again because, as it turns out, this theme is consequential for how some practitioners approach their practice, and how certain practices are understood. To give an example from a DW thread a few years ago, here are portions of some posts that show how one particular interpretation of the emanations of Buddha Shakyamuni in the Lotus Sutra can lead a practitioner to reject one practice and embrace another (full text at the link):
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=9389
I leave it to you to determine if the Lotus Sutra actually makes such a claim about Amitabha (I don't think it does, but you can see for yourself). What interests me in these posts is that a specific narrative about what a Buddha is and does, based on a related narrative about one sutra, could lead a Dharma practitioner to sincerely repent of having done serious Dharma practice.
I don't wish to condemn or commend this kind of action. I'm just marking it as extraordinary and remarkable, because it seems to me that it is.
This is why I think it's worthwhile for Dharma practitioners to have some clarity on what the word "Buddha" means, and how the three kayas work: your understanding of these matters can impact your practice dramatically.
Better to discuss the philosopy and leave out the implicit personal "attacks".
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Re: What's an emanation?
Thomas doesn't 'get' the kind of Buddhism here. He thinks that his śrāvaka literature alone prepares him to engage with the Mahāyāna. He comes here to troll Mahāyānikāḥ. He thinks that because an emanation is "self-creating" it reinforces ātmavāda. He doesn't understand that the Buddha can say "I" without self-view.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: What's an emanation?
Exactly so.
Although I am not sure that he doesn't 'get' it.
I think like many who hold views which derive from the 'Hindu' group of belief systems he believes that it is WE who don't get it, and he is here to enlighten us.
He is not the only representative of that belief on DW.
He is just more recent and is not yet adept at feeding us 'Hindu' beliefs by quoting from Buddhist teachers.
Although I am not sure that he doesn't 'get' it.
I think like many who hold views which derive from the 'Hindu' group of belief systems he believes that it is WE who don't get it, and he is here to enlighten us.
He is not the only representative of that belief on DW.
He is just more recent and is not yet adept at feeding us 'Hindu' beliefs by quoting from Buddhist teachers.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: What's an emanation?
He's an EBT ('Early Buddhist Texts', which means slightly-heterodox Theravāda) guy, not Hindu. Hence my mention of śrāvaka literature.Simon E. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:13 pm Exactly so.
Although I am not sure that he doesn't 'get' it.
I think like many who hold views which derive from the 'Hindu' group of belief systems he believes that it is WE who don't get it, and he is here to enlighten us.
He is not the only representative of that belief on DW.
He is just more recent and is not yet adept at feeding us 'Hindu' beliefs by quoting from Buddhist teachers.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: What's an emanation?
I stand corrected..thank you. I have not read many of the gentleman's posts.
I assume then that my previous assumption..that the gentleman is 'Hindu' is wrong, and that his position in fact, is that the Theravada represents 'real Buddhism' and that the Mahayana is a form of Hinduism?
A belief shared by some Theravadins and most 'Hindus'. The former as a dismissal. The latter as a perceived endorsement.
I assume then that my previous assumption..that the gentleman is 'Hindu' is wrong, and that his position in fact, is that the Theravada represents 'real Buddhism' and that the Mahayana is a form of Hinduism?
A belief shared by some Theravadins and most 'Hindus'. The former as a dismissal. The latter as a perceived endorsement.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: What's an emanation?
If you look for the thread the individual started on the 32 marks, you will see that the EBT crowd isn't 'exactly' Theravāda.Simon E. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:39 pm I stand corrected..thank you. I have not read many of the gentleman's posts.
I assume then that my previous assumption..that the gentleman is 'Hindu' is wrong, and that his position in fact, is that the Theravada represents 'real Buddhism' and that the Mahayana is a form of Hinduism?
A belief shared by some Theravadins and most 'Hindus'. The former as a dismissal. The latter as a perceived endorsement.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27161
The School of the Elders believes in the 32 marks, whatever they mean. The EBT crowd does not at all in any form, believing it to be a corrupted teaching.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: What's an emanation?
How tiresome.
I dipped into that thread but didn't realise the agenda behind it.
Given the nature of the thread I wonder what it is doing in the Mahayana subforum.
To quote Malcolms sig 'Belief is useless'.
I dipped into that thread but didn't realise the agenda behind it.
Given the nature of the thread I wonder what it is doing in the Mahayana subforum.
To quote Malcolms sig 'Belief is useless'.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
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Re: What's an emanation?
From the Nirmankaya entry in the Princeton dictionary:
The Confer reference is to the Great Miracle when Buddha several times emanated doubles of his form.The term nirmāṇakāya may have been
employed originally to describe the doubles of himself that the Buddha is
sometimes said to display in order to teach multiple audiences simultaneously.
(Cf. MAHAPRATIHARYA.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: What's an emanation?
The Great Miracle of Buddha looks like an incarnation form of Buddha.Nicholas Weeks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:18 pm From the Nirmankaya entry in the Princeton dictionary:
The Confer reference is to the Great Miracle when Buddha several times emanated doubles of his form.The term nirmāṇakāya may have been
employed originally to describe the doubles of himself that the Buddha is
sometimes said to display in order to teach multiple audiences simultaneously.
(Cf. MAHAPRATIHARYA.