simultaneity of cause and effect

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Queequeg
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Queequeg » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:51 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:41 pm

Reading some Longchempa and other Dzogchen texts, I've wondered the same thing. I can't think of specifics right now, but I actually wondered if Zhiyi's ideas might have drifted up into Tibet, or alternatively, and more likely, there were common sources.
No, not likely. The real gist of Dzogchen is so different than Lotus Buddhism and every other form of Buddhism that it really cannot be related to texts of the lower yānas at all, while at the same time incorporating their meaning fully.
Well, far beyond my pay grade, then.

:rolling:
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:32 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:00 pm

so like then it really isn't Buddhism...
it came out of Bon...
No, Dzogchen is fully Buddhist. The Bonpos borrowed it from the Buddhists, like so much else. That said, Bonpo Dzogchen is just fine.
if you are going to negate buddhist realities and say dzogchen goes further....
Dzogchen is a Mahāyāna system. Within Mahāyāna it belongs to uncommon Mahāyāna secret mantra. Within uncommon secret mantra, it belongs to the inner tantras.

The main difference between Dzogchen and other systems of Buddhadharma is that other systems of Buddhadharma practice are based on mind. Dzogchen practice, from the beginning, is based on jñāna. But if someone is really curious about what that means, they have to go and find some guru who is willing to instruct them.

It is not, an elitist system, however. Vajrahe, emanation of Śākyamuni and first human teacher of Dzogchen said, "if there is one student who is not interested in Dzogchen, that is too many. If there are 100 students interested in Dzogchen, that is too few."

Many people who wish to follow Buddhadharma do not wish to have a close relationship with a guru. This is perfectly fine. There are all kinds of strands of Buddhadharma where the relationship with a teacher is not so vital. For people who are not interested in that kind of relationship with a teacher there are all kinds of practices.

But anyone who wishes to follow Dzogchen teachings must have a guru. There is no other way.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:32 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:00 pm

so like then it really isn't Buddhism...
it came out of Bon...
No, Dzogchen is fully Buddhist. The Bonpos borrowed it from the Buddhists, like so much else. That said, Bonpo Dzogchen is just fine.
ahh i get this as Buddhism moved geographically it was met with all sorts.
i thought Dzogchen was a Bon thing basically at it's roots..and for some Mahayanists they saw fit to incor[porate it into buddhism .
so there is no Bon thought in Dzogchen it is pure Buddhist thought?

So there is no Bon thought in Dzogchen...just the Bonpos discarding Bon and turning total Buddhist?

on to another question
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:32 pm
It is not, an elitist system, however. Vajrahe, emanation of Śākyamuni and first human teacher of Dzogchen said,
You teach that sutra is legend/myth and so on.
I cannot find this emanation of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha Vajrahe and the beginnings of Dzogchen . Is this one of those expedient make up a emanation for a reason like your concept of sutras.
But anyone who wishes to follow Dzogchen teachings must have a guru. There is no other way.
ok deleted a long diatribe.....
simply put...
what are your thoughts on making the Gohonzon and the deities and Buddhas and Bodhisattvas depicted on Gohonzon as your guru ?
simply put all those described at Eagle Peak in the Lotus Sutra are on gohonzon and the practice is to meld with them in the now..

it seems to be working for me ...am i in some sort of delusional retrograde ...

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:59 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:28 pm

ahh i get this as Buddhism moved geographically it was met with all sorts.
i thought Dzogchen was a Bon thing basically at it's roots..and for some Mahayanists they saw fit to incor[porate it into buddhism .
so there is no Bon thought in Dzogchen it is pure Buddhist thought?
No, there is no Bonpo thought in Dzogchen. It is a pure system of Buddhadharma.
So there is no Bon thought in Dzogchen...just the Bonpos discarding Bon and turning total Buddhist?
More or less, this it the way things are. They have their own myths and legends of course, but for all purposes modern Bon is indistinguishable from Buddhism.

I cannot find this emanation of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha Vajrahe and the beginnings of Dzogchen .
Of course not. Garab Dorje, (Vajrahe/Vajraprahe) arose much later in the time. His teaching in India was in a very small circle, and was controversial even in India, but for reasons that are completely Buddhist. The controversy over Dzogchen in India had to with with whether or not it was necessary to engage in many of the visualization practices we find in Vajrayāna. The Dzogchen position is that it is not necessary.

what are your thoughts on making the Gohonzon and the deities and Buddhas and Bodhisattvas depicted on Gohonzon as your guru ?
I respect all images of the Buddha and bodhisattvas as nirmanakāyas, and all words and letters of the sūtrasand tantras as sambhogakāyas. But these teachings cannot be pointed out by books and words because Dzogchen is the teaching of the Dharmakāya. That said, mostly what I do is spend my day translating commentaries on Dzogchen tantras. Ironic, no?

it seems to be working for me ...am i in some sort of delusional retrograde ...
No, you are following a Buddhadharma path based on your karma and inclinations, just as I am.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Minobu » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:59 pm
But these teachings cannot be pointed out by books and words because Dzogchen is the teaching of the Dharmakāya.
I got a very nice vibe from you in that post...cannot articulate it but this side of you is so nice....

not that the other is anything bad....just saying...

so like the teaching of Dharmakaya..i don;t know if it is due to my stint in Tibetan Tantra but i view my Nichiren practice as a dharmakaya thing...without really knowing how to define dharmakaya thing..

it's like this ethereal ..no not ethereal...it is something that is there but not visible to me at the moment...like Buddha Vajradhara is there and can do stuff but i cannot fathom or see this aspect...

so like i know it's there and all the Iconic characters on gohonzon are really there in a Dharmakaya form that i can commune with , and they can guide and be my gurus and such ...but i'm not developed enough to commune like i do with other humans animals and plants...did he say plants..lol..

so can you based on what i just said ...elaborate on Dharmakaya beings.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:38 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:10 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:24 pm

i take it from what i've read you have written that Mahayana Sutra are just myths and legends....your words you wrote once.
I once speculated that Mahāyāna Sūtras were visionary revelations, but not records of actual historical events.

However, clinging to the events described in the Lotus Sūtra, or any other Mahāyāna Sūtra, opens up an uncomfortable can of worms for those who literally believe in the text of the sūtra in question.

For example, have you ever seen Vulture's Peak where the Buddha is said to have taught this sūtra?

Image
Image

How are 12,000 arhat bhikṣus supposed to fit there? Let alone, 2,000 extra, 6,000 nuns, and 80,000 bodhisattvas? Were they all levitating in space around the mountain?
In a commentary on the Heart Sutra, the Dalai Lama implies that they all met there via dream practice or like what some would call astral projection.
Didn't we all?
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:39 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:38 am
Sādhaka wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:10 pm


I once speculated that Mahāyāna Sūtras were visionary revelations, but not records of actual historical events.

However, clinging to the events described in the Lotus Sūtra, or any other Mahāyāna Sūtra, opens up an uncomfortable can of worms for those who literally believe in the text of the sūtra in question.

For example, have you ever seen Vulture's Peak where the Buddha is said to have taught this sūtra?

Image
Image

How are 12,000 arhat bhikṣus supposed to fit there? Let alone, 2,000 extra, 6,000 nuns, and 80,000 bodhisattvas? Were they all levitating in space around the mountain?
In a commentary on the Heart Sutra, the Dalai Lama implies that they all met there via dream practice or like what some would call astral projection.
Didn't we all?
The place still looks the same to me
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:55 pm

The exchange between Malcolm, Rory, et al. on the comparative merits of East Asian and Tibetan Buddhism with regard to enlightenment while burdened with the obstacles of penises and vaginas has been moved to Open Dharma.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:05 pm

Importance of LS:

A. Twenty important principles:


Giving the prophecy of enlightenment in near future to the men of the two vehicles (chap. 3)
Showing (or Opening ) Buddha's original enlightenment and his immeasurable life span (chap 16)
Praising that benefits that will accrue even to the fiftieth person who rejoices upon hearing of it (chap 18)
Persons who merely hear the name the Lotus Sutra may attain Buddhahood in this lifetime (chap 17)
Shakyamuni showing that Devadatta was his teacher in a past life (chap 12)
Manjushiri showing that the eight-year-old dragon king's daughter was his student in a past life (chap 12)
The promise that anyone who hears only one phrase of the LS shall attain Buddhahood (chap 10)
Anyone who protects the name of the LS will receive innumerable benefits (chap 26)
Women who hear the chapter of Medicine King shall never be reborn as women (chap 23)
Anyone who hears, reads and recites the LS shall know neither old age nor death (chap 23)
Those who carry out five practices shall get to the stage of resemblance to enlightenment (chap 19)
Those who carry out the four Peaceful Practices shall get into copper-wheel in their dream (chap 14)
Those who vex or trouble the practitioners of the LS will have their heads split into seven pieces (chap 26)
Those who give alms to the practitioners of the LS will enjoy good fortune surpassing the ten honorific titles (chap 10)
Among the sutras Shakyamuni has preached, now preach, and will preach, the LS is the most difficult to believe and the most difficult to understand. (chap 11)
Offering ten similes to praise the teachings of the LS. (chap 23)
Maitreya not knowing any single one of Bodhisattvas of the Earth. (chap 15)
The Omen of Lotus in the east which even Manjushiri didn't understand (chap 24)
Teaching major world system dust particle kalpas to bodhisattvas of the theoretical teaching. (chap 07)
Giving a metaphor of numberless major world system dust particle kalpas to show the original enlightenment (chap 16)

Nichiren validates the Lotus Sutra and the Lotus Sutra validates Nichiren (Nichiren's advent).

What are some of the benefits of faith in the Lotus Sutra? Parking Spaces? No. When we receive merits from Lord Shakyamuni Buddha we receive the merits needed to become a Buddha. In the Lotus Sutra Chapter Twenty-five, The Universal Gate of Kanzeon Bosatsu Fumonbon, we learn through fantastic imagery the promises of benefits that we inherit from Kannon or Kanzeon Bosatsu, literally, He Who Observes the Sounds of the World Bodhisattva. The Buddha describes the perils from which Avalokitesvara will save the people who have faith in the Lotus Sutra and these perils are repeated in the verse section [although they do not exactly match those in the prose section]. Please note how Nichiren Daishonin validates the Lotus Sutra by living the promises of the Sutra

Those who have faith in the Lotus Sutra and Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, in the following situations will be free from harm like Nichiren who lived nearly every line of the Lotus Sutra literally:

PROSE SECTION

1. If a man falls into a great fire, he will not burn. [unlike High Priest Nikkyo of the Nichiren Shoshu]

2. If he is carried away by a great wave, he will find a shallow place. [exactly as Nichiren Daishonin during the Izu exile]

3. If he enters the sea in search of riches and a black wind carries the ship to the realm of the Rakushasa, he will be saved. [Nichiren Daishonin on his voyage to Sado]

4. If he is about to be murdered, swords and weapons will break. [Nichiren Daishonin at Tatsunokuchi]

5. If hordes of yakshas and Rakushasa try to do him harm, they will not even be able to see him. [Nichiren Daishonin as he escaped from Seichoji and Matsubagayatsu]

6. Regardless of guilt, if he is in fetters or stocks, they will be broken. [Nichiro in prison]

7. If he is full of lust, he will be cured of it. [Nichiren remained a true celibate priest throughout his life]

8. If bandits find travelers with precious gems on a dangerous road, the travelers will be saved. [Nichiren Daishonin at Komatsubara]

9. If full of anger, he will lose it. [Nichiren towards his faithful disciples]

10. If full of folly, he will be cured of it. [Nichiren Daishonin having chanted the Nembutsu]

11. If a woman wants a son, she will bear one.

12. If a woman wants a daughter, she will bear one.

VERSE SECTION

1. If a man is pushed into a Pit of fire, the pit will turn into a pool. [Nichiren Daishonin's escape from his burning hut during the persecution at Matsubagayatsu,]

2. If he is afloat on a great sea in which there are fish, dragons, and ghosts, waves will not drown him. [Izu exile]

3. If he is pushed off the peak of Mount Sumeru, he will dwell in space like the sun. [Nichiren's (Sun Lotus') repeated exiles and banishments]

4. If he is chased down a diamond mountain by an evil man, he will not be harmed. [Nichiren Daishonin's escape from Tojo Kagenobu on mount Kiyasumi]

5. If he is surrounded by bandits waving swords, their thoughts will be transformed to kindly ones. [Tatsunokuchi persecution]

6. If he faces execution, the executioner's sword will break. [Tatsunokuchi]

7. If he is in a pillory with his hands and feet in stocks, he will gain release. [Nichiro]

8. If someone harms him through spells, curses, or poisons, the victim can send them back to plague their authors. [A). Nichiren was given food laced with poison. Before he ate it, he laid it down on a tree stump. A dog came by, took a few bites, and became violently ill. B). Those who suffered untoward deaths for persecuting Nichiren Daishonin]

9. If he encounters Rakushasa, dragons, or ghosts, they will not harm him. [Nichiren encountering evil men on a daily basis, many of whom became his disciples]

10. If he is surrounded by beasts with sharp claws and teeth, they will flee.

11. If confronted with snakes or insects breathing fire, the sound of one's voice will dispel them.

12. If threatened with thunder, hail, or lightning, he will remain dry. [Nichiren in his many dilapidated huts].

13. If one has misfortunes and troubles, one can be rescued. [Nichiren on a daily basis]

14. If one’s destiny is the world of hells, ghosts, or beasts, it can be changed. [Nichiren, according to Nichiren himself, in the Opening of the Eyes, The Selection of the Time, and Letter from Sado, for example]

15. The pains of birth, old age, sickness, and death can be alleviated. [Nichiren Daishonin as our example].

16. Darkness will be dispelled by the light of wisdom, which also subdues winds and flames. [Nichiren Daishonin subduing the Mongols with the Great Wind]

17. The agony of civil disputes on the battlefield will be avoided. [Komatubara persecution]

In the verse section, perils thirteen through sixteen are written in a different form from the earlier ones and are more comprehensive and general.

The seventeenth peril is written in the same manner as the earlier ones but contains two distinct perils, as does the sixteenth.

Between the prose and the verse section's lists of dangers, is a question by Aksayamati Bodhisattva about how Kannon moves within the world. The Buddha replies that the bodhisattva takes many different forms, as does Fine Sound Bodhisattva, described in chapter twenty-four. Kannon (Avalokitesvara) can appear as a Buddha, pratyekabuddha, or Sravaka; as Brahma, Indra, Lsvara, Mahesvara, Mahesana, or Vairsavana; as a minor king, rich man, householder, official, Brahman, bhikshu, Bhikshsuni, upasaka, Upasaka, wife of a householder, wife of a rich man, wife of an official, wife of a Brahman, boy, or girl; or as a god, dragon, yaksha, gandharva, Asura, garuda, kinnara, mahoraga; as a human, nonhuman, or Vajrapani. Aksayamati then presents a necklace to Kannon, who accepts and divides it, giving one part to Prabhutaratna and the other to Sakyamuni. The chapter ends with a statement that eighty-four thousand of the assembly embarked on the path to enlightenment.

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by illarraza » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:34 pm

A .Twenty Important Principles

B. Above post: Nichiren validates the Lotus Sutra and the Lotus Sutra validates Nichien (one is able to realize the very text)

C. Seeds without peer (1000 out of 1000 people who hear Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo even once will attain Buddha-hood

D: Such wonderful doctrines as Bodhi for Sravakas; Pratyekka Buddhas; and Icchantikas; the infinite lifespan of the Buddha;and 3000 Worlds in a Moment of Existence (The Buddha simultaneously posseses Pure and Perfect Enlightenment but delusions, albeit in a latent state.

E. The Enlightenment of animals and even plants i.e.: Gohonzon/statues

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by DGA » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:33 pm

illarraza wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:34 pm
A .Twenty Important Principles

B. Above post: Nichiren validates the Lotus Sutra and the Lotus Sutra validates Nichien (one is able to realize the very text)

C. Seeds without peer (1000 out of 1000 people who hear Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo even once will attain Buddha-hood

D: Such wonderful doctrines as Bodhi for Sravakas; Pratyekka Buddhas; and Icchantikas; the infinite lifespan of the Buddha;and 3000 Worlds in a Moment of Existence (The Buddha simultaneously posseses Pure and Perfect Enlightenment but delusions, albeit in a latent state.

E. The Enlightenment of animals and even plants i.e.: Gohonzon/statues
Please help me understand. Are you saying that plants, animals, and some objects are Enlightened?

By Enlightened, do you mean Buddha?

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:35 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:33 pm
Are you saying that plants, animals, and some objects are Enlightened?

By Enlightened, do you mean Buddha?
I don't know what Illaraza would say, but this is Tiantai doctrine, especially after Zhanran.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:46 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:35 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:33 pm
Are you saying that plants, animals, and some objects are Enlightened?

By Enlightened, do you mean Buddha?
I don't know what Illaraza would say, but this is Tiantai doctrine, especially after Zhanran.
The insentient buddhanature trope. Interesting article on the development of this idea in Tien tai here:

http://www.buddhism.org/?p=988
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:46 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:35 pm
DGA wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:33 pm
Are you saying that plants, animals, and some objects are Enlightened?

By Enlightened, do you mean Buddha?
I don't know what Illaraza would say, but this is Tiantai doctrine, especially after Zhanran.
The insentient buddhanature trope. Interesting article on the development of this idea in Tien tai here:

http://www.buddhism.org/?p=988
That's actually kind of short on explanation.

I have a dissertation of a Taiwanese nun at U. Indiana on the Diamond Scalpel, with English translation of that treatise referred to in Scharf's article (not quite sure what I think of Scharf... I feel like he could write for Slate). Chan-jan = Zhanran, btw.

IIRC, insentient having Buddha-Nature has to do with the apparent multiplicity of how the environment can appear to beings - to deluded beings, the world appears defiled; to enlightened beings, it is a pure Buddha-verse (to borrow Thurman's terminology). It doesn't mean that insentient beings have mind in the same way as sentients. Though, at the limits of words, the distinction between sentient and insentient tends toward incoherence (to borrow Ziporyn's terminology).
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
-The Grateful Dead

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by rory » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:22 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:35 pm
IRC, insentient having Buddha-Nature has to do with the apparent multiplicity of how the environment can appear to beings - to deluded beings, the world appears defiled; to enlightened beings, it is a pure Buddha-verse (to borrow Thurman's terminology). It doesn't mean that insentient beings have mind in the same way as sentients. Though, at the limits of words, the distinction between sentient and insentient tends toward incoherence (to borrow Ziporyn's terminology).
I don't think so Queequeg, this, somoku jobutsu is one of my favourite aspects of Tendai and dear to me:
"From Saicho's time on, Tendai scholars would argue the position that grasses and trees can indeed of themselves arouse the aspiration for enlightenment (bohdicitta, bodaishin), cultivate practice, and achieve enlightenment. Annen in particular devoted great attention to this issue."
Original Enlightenmentp. 29

And here is another Japanese Vajrayana-Avatamsaka pov:
Kukai saw plants and trees as participating ontologically in the five great elements that compose the Dharma body and that " therefore, without change in their essence, they may without objection be referred to as 'Buddha.""
Ibid.

Now I'm off to chant at my altar, without sincere practice all this talk means nothing:)!
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by jake » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:37 pm

rory wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:22 am
I don't think so Queequeg, this, somoku jobutsu is one of my favourite aspects of Tendai and dear to me:
"From Saicho's time on, Tendai scholars would argue the position that grasses and trees can indeed of themselves arouse the aspiration for enlightenment (bohdicitta, bodaishin), cultivate practice, and achieve enlightenment. Annen in particular devoted great attention to this issue."
Original Enlightenmentp. 29

And here is another Japanese Vajrayana-Avatamsaka pov:
Kukai saw plants and trees as participating ontologically in the five great elements that compose the Dharma body and that " therefore, without change in their essence, they may without objection be referred to as 'Buddha.""
Ibid.

Now I'm off to chant at my altar, without sincere practice all this talk means nothing:)!
gassho
Rory
I don't think Kukai and Tendai are talking the same thing here. Characterizing the mountains, seas, clouds, etc. as the preaching of the Dharmakaya is not really the same thing as claiming they are a "Buddha" ala somoku jobutsu, as Stone appears to imply in the quote above.

I am struggling a bit to follow this thread. Terms are being used interchangeably that I don't think really should be, tathagatagarbha, hongaku shiso, buddha-nature, etc.

Interesting read though, thanks!
“The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone."

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rory
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by rory » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:30 pm

rory wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:22 am
And here is another Japanese Vajrayana-Avatamsaka pov:
Kukai saw plants and trees as participating ontologically in the five great elements that compose the Dharma body and that " therefore, without change in their essence, they may without objection be referred to as 'Buddha.""
Ibid.
jake wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:37 pm
I don't think Kukai and Tendai are talking the same thing here. Characterizing the mountains, seas, clouds, etc. as the preaching of the Dharmakaya is not really the same thing as claiming they are a "Buddha" ala somoku jobutsu, as Stone appears to imply in the quote above.
interesting read though, thanks!
They aren't talking about the same thing the Tendai explanation is quite different from Kukai, I posted the Kukai as it seemed closer to what Queequeg was saying. And thought it would be interesting to discuss. The footnote for the Kukai quote is Hizo ki Kobo Daishi zenshu 2:37 I need to read Japanese!

I really enjoy these kind of discussions
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Malcolm
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:20 am

jake wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:37 pm
rory wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:22 am
I don't think so Queequeg, this, somoku jobutsu is one of my favourite aspects of Tendai and dear to me:
"From Saicho's time on, Tendai scholars would argue the position that grasses and trees can indeed of themselves arouse the aspiration for enlightenment (bohdicitta, bodaishin), cultivate practice, and achieve enlightenment. Annen in particular devoted great attention to this issue."
Original Enlightenmentp. 29

And here is another Japanese Vajrayana-Avatamsaka pov:
Kukai saw plants and trees as participating ontologically in the five great elements that compose the Dharma body and that " therefore, without change in their essence, they may without objection be referred to as 'Buddha.""
Ibid.

Now I'm off to chant at my altar, without sincere practice all this talk means nothing:)!
gassho
Rory
I don't think Kukai and Tendai are talking the same thing here. Characterizing the mountains, seas, clouds, etc. as the preaching of the Dharmakaya is not really the same thing as claiming they are a "Buddha" ala somoku jobutsu, as Stone appears to imply in the quote above.

I am struggling a bit to follow this thread. Terms are being used interchangeably that I don't think really should be, tathagatagarbha, hongaku shiso, buddha-nature, etc.

Interesting read though, thanks!

Buddhasvabhāva and tathāgatagarbha are definitely synonyms and are used that way many times in the Nirvana Sūtra:

Son of a good family, the so-called self is the tathāgatagarbha. The buddhasvabhāva that exists in all sentient is the meaning of "self." The meaning of "self" is obscured by the afflictions (saṃkleśa) from time without beginning, therefore, it is not seen by sentient beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:20 am
jake wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:37 pm
rory wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:22 am
I don't think so Queequeg, this, somoku jobutsu is one of my favourite aspects of Tendai and dear to me:
Original Enlightenmentp. 29

And here is another Japanese Vajrayana-Avatamsaka pov: Ibid.

Now I'm off to chant at my altar, without sincere practice all this talk means nothing:)!
gassho
Rory
I don't think Kukai and Tendai are talking the same thing here. Characterizing the mountains, seas, clouds, etc. as the preaching of the Dharmakaya is not really the same thing as claiming they are a "Buddha" ala somoku jobutsu, as Stone appears to imply in the quote above.

I am struggling a bit to follow this thread. Terms are being used interchangeably that I don't think really should be, tathagatagarbha, hongaku shiso, buddha-nature, etc.

Interesting read though, thanks!

Buddhasvabhāva and tathāgatagarbha are definitely synonyms and are used that way many times in the Nirvana Sūtra:

Son of a good family, the so-called self is the tathāgatagarbha. The buddhasvabhāva that exists in all sentient is the meaning of "self." The meaning of "self" is obscured by the afflictions (saṃkleśa) from time without beginning, therefore, it is not seen by sentient beings.
The Chinese, rather than complicating the recension, here, is almost absolutely word-for-word corresponding:

迦葉菩薩白佛言:「世尊!我從今日始得正見。世尊!自是之前,我等悉名邪見之人。
Mahākāśyapa Bodhisattva asked the Buddha to speak: "Bhagavān! I from today start in obtaining right view. Bhagavān! Until now, we all entirely abided in wrong view.

世尊!二十五有,有我不耶?」
Bhagavān! In the twenty five existences, is there no ātman definitely?

佛言:「善男子!我者即是如來藏義。一切眾生悉有佛性,即是我義。
The Buddha said: "Kulaputra! Ātman, prompt and exact, is Tathāgatagarbha in meaning. All sentient beings all have a Buddha element, prompt and exact, Ātman is it's meaning.

如是我義,從本已來,常為無量煩惱所覆,是故眾生不能得見。
Thus so ātman's meaning is, from root towards end [of kleśāḥ, one assumes], constantly under kleśāḥ without limit covered, therefore sentient beings cannot obtain sight of it.


The only significant difference is 佛性/Buddhadhātu vs the Sanskritic Buddhasvabhāva.

Svabhāva, in Chinese, would have been rendered something like 自性, literally "own-nature/own-dhātu". But this is only something that would interest language nerds. The terms are for all intensive purposes identical in both Sanskrit & Chinese recensions, as well as their order of presentation.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Malcolm
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Re: simultaneity of cause and effect

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:40 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:15 am

prompt and exact,
These ideograms are just reproducing "iti" and other similar formations.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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