Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

WeiHan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by WeiHan » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:48 pm

Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:42 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:00 pm
....
if you guys are just there to receive empowerments, some teachings which he taught from traditional texts (it can't go wrong), then it is fine. But if his close students hook you up to help in setting up centres etc fro this Rinpoche, you better think twice.
I don't understand, why think twice about helping in his centres? I'll probably do so next year. The examples you gave mostly show to me the naivety (to put it nicely) of people. I wouldn't think even for a second to ask any of my teachers about help with my job, in the sense of how to do it better. If any one of them gave me unsolicited advice on it, I would definitely listen but also think it through - if it didn't make much sense or brought high likelihood of negative consequences I would not follow it.

Practices can indeed help with your relative circumstance but you can't just expect everything to go well without good work on your own side. The saying "God helps those who help themselves" goes for us as well, I think many people don't do enough on the help themselves part. I certainly don't. Although I don't do enough on the other side either, in the end I seem to be just a lazy bum. :emb:
If you want to help up in his centre, then you probably have to put up with lots of such irrationality of the sort i mentioned. On top of that, they kept pushing you for the money...it seems like it is constantly on some big projects back at Bhutan.

Pero
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Pero » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:10 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:48 pm
If you want to help up in his centre, then you probably have to put up with lots of such irrationality of the sort i mentioned. On top of that, they kept pushing you for the money...it seems like it is constantly on some big projects back at Bhutan.
Ah... I doubt this will happen here. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

WeiHan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by WeiHan » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:18 pm

Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:10 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:48 pm
If you want to help up in his centre, then you probably have to put up with lots of such irrationality of the sort i mentioned. On top of that, they kept pushing you for the money...it seems like it is constantly on some big projects back at Bhutan.
Ah... I doubt this will happen here. :smile:
It depends on conditions. if the crowd has this characteristics, then it will happen. This Rinpoche also knows which crowds to "exploit" on. Also, you won't be happy "helping out" in the centre. Think about it! the person who is working at the centre, talk you in and disappear after that leaving you working alone there...

amanitamusc
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:04 pm

Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:42 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:00 pm
....
if you guys are just there to receive empowerments, some teachings which he taught from traditional texts (it can't go wrong), then it is fine. But if his close students hook you up to help in setting up centres etc fro this Rinpoche, you better think twice.
I don't understand, why think twice about helping in his centres? I'll probably do so next year. The examples you gave mostly show to me the naivety (to put it nicely) of people. I wouldn't think even for a second to ask any of my teachers about help with my job, in the sense of how to do it better. If any one of them gave me unsolicited advice on it, I would definitely listen but also think it through - if it didn't make much sense or brought high likelihood of negative consequences I would not follow it.

Practices can indeed help with your relative circumstance but you can't just expect everything to go well without good work on your own side. The saying "God helps those who help themselves" goes for us as well, I think many people don't do enough on the help themselves part. I certainly don't. Although I don't do enough on the other side either, in the end I seem to be just a lazy bum. :emb:
This certainly fits my profile and as Simon mentioned going to the essence is important.

Pero
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Pero » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:21 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:18 pm
Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:10 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:48 pm
If you want to help up in his centre, then you probably have to put up with lots of such irrationality of the sort i mentioned. On top of that, they kept pushing you for the money...it seems like it is constantly on some big projects back at Bhutan.
Ah... I doubt this will happen here. :smile:
It depends on conditions. if the crowd has this characteristics, then it will happen. This Rinpoche also knows which crowds to "exploit" on. Also, you won't be happy "helping out" in the centre. Think about it! the person who is working at the centre, talk you in and disappear after that leaving you working alone there...
My vajra sister that asked me for help wouldn't abandon me. I know where she lives. :twisted: Just kidding. Actually there's no "center" here, just a very small group of people, perhaps that is an issue at actual centres where there's more people? Seems a bit paranoid to me as in the places I've visited people seemed quite cooperative but if so that really sucks and shouldn't be allowed.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

WeiHan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by WeiHan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:39 am

Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:21 pm

My vajra sister that asked me for help wouldn't abandon me. I know where she lives. :twisted: Just kidding. Actually there's no "center" here, just a very small group of people, perhaps that is an issue at actual centres where there's more people? Seems a bit paranoid to me as in the places I've visited people seemed quite cooperative but if so that really sucks and shouldn't be allowed.
The problem aggravates when there is a physical centre. Another point I do not agree with this Rinpoche is that he likes to drop hints to a few specific people about wanting a centre but never quite confirm it publicly. if he is so far-sighted as to chose the right people to entrust the task, I'll have nothing to object to but the people he likes to hint to are exactly those that are naive, irresponsible and incapable as mentioned above.

It creates avenue for such people to kept asking for money from people and there isn't any proper accounting despite requesting for one. That is on top of the issue that a physical centre in a city is a huge financial burden. Guess what? The rinpoche said I leave the problems for you all to solve yourselves. And then, he is unwilling to send a resident lamas citing that lamas that came to asian cities came as a monk but returning back to bhutan not as monk. My question is that then why push for a physical centre when it is not ready? I know what he meant by his monk not returning as monk. This monk, probably taking cue, misunderstanding what he himself is doing, has developed an attachment to collect offerings (asian disciples like to offers monks), requesting support to built "retreat centre" which in actuality is his own house hermitage back at Bhutan. I think it is unfair to blame the people at the cities instead of his own ineffective teachings.

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heart
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by heart » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:14 am

WeiHan wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:39 am
Pero wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:21 pm

My vajra sister that asked me for help wouldn't abandon me. I know where she lives. :twisted: Just kidding. Actually there's no "center" here, just a very small group of people, perhaps that is an issue at actual centres where there's more people? Seems a bit paranoid to me as in the places I've visited people seemed quite cooperative but if so that really sucks and shouldn't be allowed.
The problem aggravates when there is a physical centre. Another point I do not agree with this Rinpoche is that he likes to drop hints to a few specific people about wanting a centre but never quite confirm it publicly. if he is so far-sighted as to chose the right people to entrust the task, I'll have nothing to object to but the people he likes to hint to are exactly those that are naive, irresponsible and incapable as mentioned above.

It creates avenue for such people to kept asking for money from people and there isn't any proper accounting despite requesting for one. That is on top of the issue that a physical centre in a city is a huge financial burden. Guess what? The rinpoche said I leave the problems for you all to solve yourselves. And then, he is unwilling to send a resident lamas citing that lamas that came to asian cities came as a monk but returning back to bhutan not as monk. My question is that then why push for a physical centre when it is not ready? I know what he meant by his monk not returning as monk. This monk, probably taking cue, misunderstanding what he himself is doing, has developed an attachment to collect offerings (asian disciples like to offers monks), requesting support to built "retreat centre" which in actuality is his own house hermitage back at Bhutan. I think it is unfair to blame the people at the cities instead of his own ineffective teachings.
I don't know Gangteng Rinpoche, so I can't respond to your criticism of him as a lama. But everything you write here above seems like any Buddhist center anywhere in the world. If you don't want or can't help, don't do it. If you feel uncomfortable at the center, don't go there. No point in talking bad about what they do, you probably don't have the full picture. Keep your distance and don't talk about the center and I would also say avoid talking about the lama. Take care of yourself which means follow the basic training of a Bodhisattva and don't point finger at others.The main point of the Buddhas training is to train our own minds, not the minds of others. I can see from my own experience that you are heading for a place where you will have so much doubts that it might destroy your practice. Don't go there.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Matylda
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Matylda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:44 am

Gangteng Tulku is head of the Gangteng monastery in Bhutan. It is an important monastic nyingma institution. He was made the head of it long time ago. In addition he was given over 20 monasteries of nyingma which he tried to restore and rebuild since they were in terrible condition. The goverment of Bhutan makes him as the head of all this monasteries responsible for their rebuilding. We have to keep in mind, that they aften contain very important artefacts of great religious and culture value. When he was able to improve their condition he was granted even more, and now has to manage about 40 monasteries of a different size. Some are in terriible shape. Yes, he was collecting always funds for the projects. And indeed they seem to be endless. I admire his untiring effort in spite of all criticism it draws. I advice some of the critics to visit those places, and try to live there. They are not empty. In some are residing tulkus who live rather spartan life. Due to conditions. Maybe then all bshing would soften a little bit.

As for his statemnet of huge Buddha. Indeed for Western rational mind it appears as idiots talk. But modern people used to rely so much on their 'scientific' perception of reality, by which they are cornered badly. Our belief in the scientific reality did not improve our lives on all levels. Maybe on phisical material level, but even this I would rather question deeply. Science aims finally at profit. If religion does it is not really religion or at least does not serve its purpose. Humans could spoil everything. Scince also suppresses strongly any wish of freedom. Why? since it serves big money. Therefore we do not have free energy we create tremendous poverty etc. sciense is destroying the Earth, although comes in hipocritic way as trying to save the Earth...

Westerners if confronted with any dharma teaching which does not fir scientific point of materialistic view blindly reject such teachings. So what for dharma for them? Isn't it better, wiser and more honet ust to follow science?

Noe to address disciples of Gangteng Tulku. At least I think it has very bad taste. To inject a doubt in his immature disciples, and there are some like this, for sure, is something very serious. It goes against dharma in fact. It creates obstacles not only for the disciples, but also for one who tries to do it. I understand the scientific and logical approach does not include karma, rebirth etc. they are of course not proved in materialistic scientific way. But one has to sit nd think about motivation and purpose of such action.

My family was directly involved in Bhutan, also with Bhustanese gov. I know the set backs struggle and challanges of the situation over there specially with nyingma oldest monasteries which were for many political and historical reasons not so well treated as drukpa monasteries. I find all the criticism as stupid as it is. And moreover I have no idea how it comes that one can develope such attitude. Maybe it comes from lack of knwoledge. Maybe there is something alse, more personal. It does not matter. But it concerns me that it is an attempt to undermine years of effort of an excelllent teacher.

MiphamFan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:03 am

WeiHan, you are Singaporean right?

I received teachings from Gangteng Rinpoche before. I'm not going to defend him on the Buddha was a giant point, but that was an interesting point you made about the various followers who decided to use pujas over their common sense and analytical skills.

To be honest, at an earlier point in my life I was also very interested in various siddhis, including wealth etc. Now, I've come to believe that lamas might be expert in Buddhism, in meditation etc if they are properly trained, but their opinions on everything else should not be taken for granted any more than those of any other non-expert.

I am Singaproean too, maybe some people will say that Asians in the first place have more "faith" in the fantastic stuff, but I'm not sure that is true -- why else would Western people follow abusive lamas (I dont mean Gangteng Rinpoche) under the guise of "samaya" for so long?

I am not a materialist, I had experiences that made me believe there really are "spirits"; however, I am doubtful that humans can reliably control them in any substantial way -- Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg didn't conjure spirits to get where they are and as your own example shows, people who depend on the protectors for wealth don't get anywhere. The invasion of Tibet itself showed that putting faith in protectors rather than modernizing also failed Tibetans. (ChNN for example recommended that monasteries start to modernize and monks could start small work collectives after he went on a trip to China but everyone accused him of converting to communism, in the end they regretted it and said he was right)

Still, I think your criticism of Gangteng Rinpoche in wishing to support his efforts in Bhutan go a bit too far.

fckw
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by fckw » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:18 am

If the length of the body grows by size then the body's weight grows by the power of three to the size. Therefore, in order to support such a giant body its bones must be disproportionally larger and thicker. For this reason, if Buddha were really that much bigger than a normal human he would not have looked like a normal human anymore but much more "compacted".

(This argument was brought forth to you by science.)

Matylda
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Matylda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:12 pm

Proper attitude and motivation for Maning specially is to be based on bodhicitta or at least some bodhicitta wish. If a greedy man hoping profit and fame will do it then for sure there will be many mistakes in such practice... so even if Buddha gives most excellent practice, stupid disciple may spoil it completely. Why to blame Gangteng Tulku? Moreover there is a narrow chance that there is no other way to show students stinginess, stupidity and worldly mean mind.. just gice him practice and let him fail. It is finally all his doings not teacher's. If people ar grown ups then they are themsleves responsible for their life and practice.

MiphamFan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:41 pm

I don't blame Gangteng Rinpiche for that. I think it's the followers' own gullibility that caused it.

I just think sometimes people have too much faith in the supernatural powers, I know I did. Now I think karma is much more important. King Bimbisara sponsored the Buddha himself on many occasions, it still didn't orevent him from being imprisoned by his own son.

Matylda
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Matylda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:12 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:41 pm
I don't blame Gangteng Rinpiche for that. I think it's the followers' own gullibility that caused it.

I just think sometimes people have too much faith in the supernatural powers, I know I did. Now I think karma is much more important. King Bimbisara sponsored the Buddha himself on many occasions, it still didn't orevent him from being imprisoned by his own son.
Buddha is perfect example.. many disciples of His, lay and monastic failed badly during Buddha's life. It is enough to read vinaya texts, which witnes many cases like that. And nobody blamed Buddha, that is right. Fiath in supernatural powers as far as I could observe in the West, and Asia as well serve only very limited personal effort for money and fame.

Some who declare to make money for the sake of dharma, here I mean lay people, and indeed sponsor dharma, become very arrogant. They think that they are special in this or that way. This attitude is disgusting in fact. Monks and teachers who become genuinly greedy and get mercilessly money from lay are also case of failure. Both lay and monastic/teachers can end up in some pretty terrible situation. However in the case of true teacher in the sense of proper motivation even if they collect funds, it does not mean failure. Some are stressed even by the duties which were given to them but are bold enough to face the situation even if it may bring some criticism on them.. Such people I admire especially since they have to go against the current, and if they do it aware of whats up, it means that the power of their wisdom is fine.

It is easy to be praised and everything goes smoothly but to know the goal and still it will cause opposition is very particular situation and one has to have some mental power, and of course I do not mean power of greed, fame and profit.

WeiHan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by WeiHan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:52 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:03 am
WeiHan, you are Singaporean right?

I received teachings from Gangteng Rinpoche before. I'm not going to defend him on the Buddha was a giant point, but that was an interesting point you made about the various followers who decided to use pujas over their common sense and analytical skills.

To be honest, at an earlier point in my life I was also very interested in various siddhis, including wealth etc. Now, I've come to believe that lamas might be expert in Buddhism, in meditation etc if they are properly trained, but their opinions on everything else should not be taken for granted any more than those of any other non-expert.

I am Singaproean too, maybe some people will say that Asians in the first place have more "faith" in the fantastic stuff, but I'm not sure that is true -- why else would Western people follow abusive lamas (I dont mean Gangteng Rinpoche) under the guise of "samaya" for so long?

I am not a materialist, I had experiences that made me believe there really are "spirits"; however, I am doubtful that humans can reliably control them in any substantial way -- Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg didn't conjure spirits to get where they are and as your own example shows, people who depend on the protectors for wealth don't get anywhere. The invasion of Tibet itself showed that putting faith in protectors rather than modernizing also failed Tibetans. (ChNN for example recommended that monasteries start to modernize and monks could start small work collectives after he went on a trip to China but everyone accused him of converting to communism, in the end they regretted it and said he was right)

Still, I think your criticism of Gangteng Rinpoche in wishing to support his efforts in Bhutan go a bit too far.
Deciding to use pujas is one thing but rinpoches actually giving advise during private audience is another. The first case above which I wrote about loves to consult Rinpoche over such matters. Apparently, he got the assurance from rinpoche that his business endeavor will be a success, thus his decision to resign from his cushy job. I know this case very well because this guy was telling me about his business plan and I also knew his job before resignation which was a rather cushy job with above middle class salary. I was giving him alternative opinion such as "what if you resigned this job and the business endeavor didn't make any or much money?", "Have you made sufficient preparation for a viable plan B if results doesn't play out as he wishes?". I was actually secretly hoping that he will drop his daydreaming. But that fateful day, he consulted Rinpoche's opinion about the future success of his "business" which he got encouragement and affirmation.

So it is not a case about doing the practices but results didn't turn as wished...if this is the case, I won't be "blaming" rinpoche at all as I knew these guys didn't really practice at all. It is not even a case where they have practiced but failed..I knew they didn't practice but still I don't think any teachers should promise wealth, worldly success etc with such practices...

i don't understand why you talked about spirits. i am not a materialist too and believe in rebirth, law of karma etc...but that doesn't mean that I automatically accept any craps that religious institutions or figures want to shove down on me..just a side note for that matter, my belief in rebirth comes from personal investigation rather than from taking it from scriptures or any religious teachers..

I do not understand the values or the importance of Bhutanese heritage or artifacts and so will not tolerate unruly shoving down the throat. perhaps, as bhutanese gov, they understood best what it stands for and should be in the forefront in preserving these...Shoving all heavy work to a citizen is not what a responsible government should be doing..
Last edited by WeiHan on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Matylda
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Matylda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:11 pm

It is often the case that people try to rely on teachers not on common sense. The second, we never participate in private interviews, so we know very little how it went. The third point is, that we do not know how people present their problem or idea, if they deceive themsleves they can also deceive a teacher, specially if he does not know them well, since they see each other for the very short time. The fourth, it is better not to become a third party in such situations, since we do lack knowledge how to mend it.. And finally, by improper involvment as the third party in other people matters we may do some harm to ourselves and others.
Last edited by Matylda on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

WeiHan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by WeiHan » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:16 pm

Matylda wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:11 pm
It is often the case that people try to rely on teachers not on common sense. The second, we never participate in provate interviewsThe third point is, that we do not know how people present their problem or idea,, if they deceive themsleves they can also ceceive a teacher, specially if he does not know them well, since they se each other for the very short time. The fourth, it is better not to become a third party in such situations, since we do lack knowledge how to mend it.. And finally by improper involvment as the third party in other people matters we may do some harm to ourselves and others.
I am suspecting this guy didn't present all his fact properly to Rinpoche. this guy often like to tell me that Rinpoche has clairvoyance.

I don't want to get involve with him if not bcos he want to borrow lots of money from me after his failure...makes me want to puke at religionist meaning I am not impress with people who boast bull faith but can't use common sense.

Matylda
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Matylda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:36 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:52 pm

I do not understand the values or the importance of Bhutanese heritage or artifacts and so will not tolerate unruly shoving down the throat. perhaps, as bhutanese gov, they understood best what it stands for and should be in the forefront in preserving these...Shoving all heavy work to a citizen is not what a responsible government should be doing..
Yes if you would mean any gov in the West you may be right. Also it would apply to any Asian gov based on the same rules as western democracy. But Butan is a case in itself. There is kind of very complicated historical, political and religious thing involved in this case. It is not so easy to do such work in Bhutan without permission from the Bhutanese gov. One has to go through complicated process actually, and many things play in it. It is not only gov but also position of Gangteng Tulku and his feeling of responsibility. Being a head of one of most important lineages of Pema Lingpa, he is supposed also by big nyingma sangha to handle the matter. All those places are very important since they contain unusual personal belongings of Guru Rinpoche, Pema Lingpa and other great beings, and they are connected to places were those beings attained awakening. So from historical and religious point of view they are very important. due to some unfortunate history sometimes they were even abandoned. It is important to keep such places intact and in good shape for the sake of dharma. Some tulkus are very desperate who try to keep up those places, this I knw from the first hand. They live there in very severe conditions but still are hoping. Gangteng Tulku work is great in spute of this what people outside of Bhutan may think of him.

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Malcolm
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm

I don't see how any of this is relevant to whether Buddhas was a giant or not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by Matylda » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm
I don't see how any of this is relevant to whether Buddhas was a giant or not.
Indeed :)

WeiHan
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Re: Gangteng Rinpoche: Buddha really was a giant

Post by WeiHan » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:29 am

Matylda wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm
I don't see how any of this is relevant to whether Buddhas was a giant or not.
Indeed :)
It got to do with what irrational thinking can lead to in people real life. Believing that a teacher have clairvoyance and using that as final decision factor over one's own rational thinking over important matters bordering the thinking that "science is always lying and make up stuffs". Matylda. You have a very extreme sweeping view about science but yet you won't hesitate to use the products of science everyday like for example, internet..

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