Pointing out instructions and commitments

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27499
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:57 am

CedarTree wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:55 pm

But maybe I am off on what is experienced and pointed out in pointing out instruction and could be corrected?
You cannot explain the taste of an apple to a person who has never tasted fruit.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3035
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The American Colosseum

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Virgo » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:54 am

Punya wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:21 am
Several current conversations on DW have led me to wondering: if you receive pointing out instructions from a particular teacher aren't you making, at least, a lifetime commitment to them?
Dzogchen teachings lead you to your own state, which is beyond the outer form of the guru. The Guru is there to make you independent. If a practitioner realizes their state, they will continue to be devoted to their Guru, however, and will likely continue to receive teachings/advices and so on. The comittment really is to try to discover your natural state and integrate with that as much as possible. People don't have to enter into retreat, but Dzogchen practice should become number 1, if they have a strong karmic connection to the practice itelf.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheYoungTurks/videos
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainfor ... orestation
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otGs4ZMOyq4

diamind
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by diamind » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:47 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:27 pm
diamind wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm
I don't know why people actually think there is this special moment when the guru introduces the nature of mind like he turns it on and off only for special empowerments. He is doing it even as he sleeps.
This isn't correct, sorry man.

/magnus
Agreed, this isn't correct.
So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?

What about in the case of Ananda? The Buddha was far was sleeping he was non existent!

Theres many cases of the Buddha introducing the TNM just by being in his presence. It's spontaneous.

I'm sure I've heard of Tibetan accounts of farting introducing TNM. Also burning embers landing on the skin with the lama no where to be seen. Tho, I can't recall these story exactly.

User avatar
Spelare
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:38 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Spelare » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:32 am

diamind wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:47 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:27 pm


This isn't correct, sorry man.

/magnus
Agreed, this isn't correct.
So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?

What about in the case of Ananda? The Buddha was far was sleeping he was non existent!

Theres many cases of the Buddha introducing the TNM just by being in his presence. It's spontaneous.

I'm sure I've heard of Tibetan accounts of farting introducing TNM. Also burning embers landing on the skin with the lama no where to be seen. Tho, I can't recall these story exactly.
There are also cases of people being introduced to the nature of mind in dream encounters with enlightened masters whose waking forms were none the wiser, or who had been dead for years. While such things have been reported a number of times over the centuries, those still represent a small minority of awakenings. In the overwhelming majority of cases, a student awakens with the help of a living teacher who is consciously engaged in teaching them.

It is often the case that someone receives teachings and only sometime later recognizes their meaning in his or her direct experience. That could certainly happen while one is not in a teacher's presence, and perhaps not even engaged in formal practice. But the prior encounter with the teachings enables that awakening to dawn.

I would not rule out spontaneous awakening; it could indeed happen at any moment, without warning. But why should anyone count on being one of the outside cases who awakens without a teacher's guidance? If a person has that aptitude, working with a qualified teacher can only help them discover it more efficiently.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27499
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:44 pm

diamind wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am

So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?
No one said this.

Theres many cases of the Buddha introducing the TNM just by being in his presence. It's spontaneous.
For example?


It seems you have this idea of gurus that they are like radioactive isotopes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27499
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 pm

Spelare wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:32 am

I would not rule out spontaneous awakening; it could indeed happen at any moment, without warning.
This is categorically rejected in Dzogchen tantras.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4314
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by heart » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:57 pm

diamind wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:47 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:27 pm


This isn't correct, sorry man.

/magnus
Agreed, this isn't correct.
So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?
TNM? Tokyo Natural Museum? :smile:

There seem to be 2 schools, one say yes and the other say that you first must have received the pointing-out but that you might then recognise it later on your own.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27499
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:11 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:57 pm
diamind wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:47 pm


Agreed, this isn't correct.
So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?
TNM? Tokyo Natural Museum? :smile:

There seem to be 2 schools, one say yes and the other say that you first must have received the pointing-out but that you might then recognise it later on your own.

/magnus

There is a third school, (ChNN): when receiving direct introduction, in the beginning it may be too subtle for the student to "catch;" however, they did have the experience. It is then necessary is for them not to remain in doubt through use of various methods so they can continue in that state.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

diamind
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by diamind » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:37 am

heart wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:57 pm
diamind wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:47 pm


Agreed, this isn't correct.
So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?
TNM? Tokyo Natural Museum? :smile:

There seem to be 2 schools, one say yes and the other say that you first must have received the pointing-out but that you might then recognise it later on your own.

/magnus
Every gesture of the guru is a pointing out instructions. doh!

Punya
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Punya » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:55 am

The conversation moved on, but thank you to everyone who responded to my questions in the earlier part of the thread.
May the stupid meditators be awakened from the sleep of ignorance;
May the attacks of the logicians with their sophistries be vanquished.

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in The Rain of Wisdom

diamind
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by diamind » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:05 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:44 pm
diamind wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am

So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?
No one said this.

Theres many cases of the Buddha introducing the TNM just by being in his presence. It's spontaneous.
For example?


It seems you have this idea of gurus that they are like radioactive isotopes.
They are.. http://theyoginiproject.org/interview-with-a-dakini long live the king!

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4314
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by heart » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:08 am

diamind wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:37 am
heart wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:57 pm
diamind wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:39 am


So categorically the guru must be present when you recognise the TNM?
TNM? Tokyo Natural Museum? :smile:

There seem to be 2 schools, one say yes and the other say that you first must have received the pointing-out but that you might then recognise it later on your own.

/magnus
Every gesture of the guru is a pointing out instructions. doh!
If you don't understand what a pointing-out instruction is you might think like that.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

diamind
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:19 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by diamind » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:51 am

heart wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:08 am
diamind wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:37 am
heart wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:57 pm


TNM? Tokyo Natural Museum? :smile:

There seem to be 2 schools, one say yes and the other say that you first must have received the pointing-out but that you might then recognise it later on your own.

/magnus
Every gesture of the guru is a pointing out instructions. doh!
If you don't understand what a pointing-out instruction is you might think like that.

/magnus
I've said too much already 🤐

Simon E.
Posts: 5296
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Simon E. » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:54 pm

diamind wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:51 am
heart wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:08 am
diamind wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:37 am


Every gesture of the guru is a pointing out instructions. doh!
If you don't understand what a pointing-out instruction is you might think like that.

/magnus
I've said too much already 🤐
Finally you post something that most of us can agree with.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
weitsicht
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by weitsicht » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:57 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:47 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:27 pm
diamind wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm
I don't know why people actually think there is this special moment when the guru introduces the nature of mind like he turns it on and off only for special empowerments. He is doing it even as he sleeps.
This isn't correct, sorry man.

/magnus
Agreed, this isn't correct.
Not being correct you refer to the last sentence He is doing it even as he sleeps. ?

Back to the OT's topic:
is this special moment receiving the fourth abisheka?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4793
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by conebeckham » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:19 pm

Fourth abhisheka is one instance or method, yes. It can occur in other contexts, including in pith instructions. There are many methods, but they are usually specific instances with intention on the teacher’s part, and receptivity on the student’s part. Ngo Tro, DI, “Word” empowerment, Rigpai Tsel Wang, all can be instances...
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27499
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:03 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:57 am


Not being correct you refer to the last sentence He is doing it even as he sleeps. ?
Yes, it is a silly statement.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27499
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:07 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:19 pm
Fourth abhisheka is one instance or method, yes. It can occur in other contexts, including in pith instructions. There are many methods, but they are usually specific instances with intention on the teacher’s part, and receptivity on the student’s part. Ngo Tro, DI, “Word” empowerment, Rigpai Tsel Wang, all can be instances...
The ripening empowerment is not sufficient; one also needs the liberation instructions.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4793
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by conebeckham » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:31 pm

Yes, of course. And one has to put them to use, needless to say. Pointing Out is merely opening a door.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 3035
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: The American Colosseum

Re: Pointing out instructions and commitments

Post by Virgo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:44 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:31 pm
Yes, of course. And one has to put them to use, needless to say. Pointing Out is merely opening a door.
It is opening a door for the individual to discover the teachings themselves, that they have received from a master. This is how it works.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheYoungTurks/videos
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainfor ... orestation
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otGs4ZMOyq4

Post Reply

Return to “Dzogchen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: topazdreamz and 7 guests