Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
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Yavana
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Yavana » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:33 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:07 am
Not 100% sure about this but a married buddhist man can go see hookers on the side and not break the sexual misconduct precept. If a man were ever to do this in modern western society all hell would break loose and would be like an episode on jerry springer.
Yeah, my understanding is that a law was passed in Mexico forbidding a man from denying that he had cheated on his wife if she caught him in the act. Because, funny thing is, that's a really effective tactic. The mind itself is funny like that. Just deny, deny, deny.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Yavana » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:38 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:44 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:59 pm
I hope he remembered all their anniversaries.
He's a Buddha, he knows EVERYTHING! Which is pretty handy if you are going to have 84,000 wives! :)
Even before mastering the triple world, Siddhartha was grabbing life by the dukkha.

:bow:

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:23 am
If men are SNEAKING behind their partners backs seeing prostitutes or lovers...married or not....(IMHO) it's SEXUAL MISCONDUCT.

DUH.

Buddha didn't sneak around...did he ??????? Oh, i suppose it was expected of men anyways.....but NOT of women...thus, the DOUBLE STANDARD.
Married men sleeping with hookers in the time of Gautama was seen as normal and not sexual misconduct. The wife had to accept it. Actually this norm still exists in Thailand which is a predominantly Theravadin Buddhist country.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Yavana » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:44 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am
Married men sleeping with hookers in the time of Gautama was seen as normal and not sexual misconduct. The wife had to accept it. Actually this norm still exists in Thailand which is a predominantly Theravadin Buddhist country.
If Buddha said it was okay, it's alright by me.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:49 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:23 am
If men are SNEAKING behind their partners backs seeing prostitutes or lovers...married or not....(IMHO) it's SEXUAL MISCONDUCT.

DUH.

Buddha didn't sneak around...did he ??????? Oh, i suppose it was expected of men anyways.....but NOT of women...thus, the DOUBLE STANDARD.
Married men sleeping with hookers in the time of Gautama was seen as normal and not sexual misconduct. The wife had to accept it. Actually this norm still exists in Thailand which is a predominantly Theravadin Buddhist country.
Having said this I think it is important to not sleep around with hookers and stay loyal to one's wife and family. Same goes for women who go to bars and have one night stands with random men every weekend. Both are abhorrent behaviors. Conservative family values = healthy and strong society.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by shaunc » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:50 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:23 am
If men are SNEAKING behind their partners backs seeing prostitutes or lovers...married or not....(IMHO) it's SEXUAL MISCONDUCT.

DUH.

Buddha didn't sneak around...did he ??????? Oh, i suppose it was expected of men anyways.....but NOT of women...thus, the DOUBLE STANDARD.
Married men sleeping with hookers in the time of Gautama was seen as normal and not sexual misconduct. The wife had to accept it. Actually this norm still exists in Thailand which is a predominantly Theravadin Buddhist country.
Exactly right. Don't compare different times and different societies. Even things as basic as sourcing your food are/were done differently in other times and societies.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Yavana » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:57 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:49 am
Having said this I think it is important to not sleep around with hookers and stay loyal to one's wife and family. Same goes for women who go to bars and have one night stands with random men every weekend. Both are abhorrent behaviors. Conservative family values = healthy and strong society.
:good:

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:03 am

If people can't clarify what this thread is actually about -other than moralizing and grandstanding-, I'm going to shutter it. We have a million threads ony sexual misconduct, people proclaiming this or that as the correct view...let's narrow down the subject matter a bit, and figure out what we're talking about.
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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:42 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am
Married men sleeping with hookers in the time of Gautama was seen as normal and not sexual misconduct. The wife had to accept it
Actually, it WOULD be sexual misconduct, if it was NOT CONSENSUAL to the WIFE....regardless of the norms in that society. I can't believe that women were OK with their men sleeping with other women....but of course the men didn't care about what their wives thought anyways.....DID THEY ? NO.


ALSO, PROSTITUTION is considered WRONG LIVELIHOOD.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:30 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:42 am
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am
Married men sleeping with hookers in the time of Gautama was seen as normal and not sexual misconduct. The wife had to accept it
Actually, it WOULD be sexual misconduct, if it was NOT CONSENSUAL to the WIFE....regardless of the norms in that society. I can't believe that women were OK with their men sleeping with other women....but of course the men didn't care about what their wives thought anyways.....DID THEY ? NO.
Women were expected to be obedient towards men whether they slept with hookers or not. That's just how it was. It would be best not to judge other cultures.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:44 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:42 am

ALSO, PROSTITUTION is considered WRONG LIVELIHOOD.
Yes it is but its also the oldest profession in the world that is never going away anytime soon. Better to legalize and regulate it in order to ensure safety for both the prostitute and clients.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:05 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:30 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:42 am
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am
Married men sleeping with hookers in the time of Gautama was seen as normal and not sexual misconduct. The wife had to accept it
Actually, it WOULD be sexual misconduct, if it was NOT CONSENSUAL to the WIFE....regardless of the norms in that society. I can't believe that women were OK with their men sleeping with other women....but of course the men didn't care about what their wives thought anyways.....DID THEY ? NO.
Women were expected to be obedient towards men whether they slept with hookers or not. That's just how it was. It would be best not to judge other cultures.
It's the culture of men, that I question...hasn't changed much has it...
That's why this world is so messed up.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:08 am

Here's a bit that I imagine almost any Buddhist would agree on:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:11 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:07 am
Not 100% sure about this but a married buddhist man can go see hookers on the side and not break the sexual misconduct precept.
False.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:13 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:05 am
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:30 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:42 am


Actually, it WOULD be sexual misconduct, if it was NOT CONSENSUAL to the WIFE....regardless of the norms in that society. I can't believe that women were OK with their men sleeping with other women....but of course the men didn't care about what their wives thought anyways.....DID THEY ? NO.
Women were expected to be obedient towards men whether they slept with hookers or not. That's just how it was. It would be best not to judge other cultures.
It's the culture of men, that I question...hasn't changed much has it...
That's why this world is so messed up.
And hating on men isn't the solution to solving the world's problems. Aversion is one of the three poisons in Buddhism. You would be doing yourself a favor to try getting rid of it.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:11 am
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:07 am
Not 100% sure about this but a married buddhist man can go see hookers on the side and not break the sexual misconduct precept.
False.
Great.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:22 am

Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:13 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:05 am
Ricky wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:30 am

Women were expected to be obedient towards men whether they slept with hookers or not. That's just how it was. It would be best not to judge other cultures.
It's the culture of men, that I question...hasn't changed much has it...
That's why this world is so messed up.
And hating on men isn't the solution to solving the world's problems. Aversion is one of the three poisons in Buddhism. You would be doing yourself a favor to try getting rid of it.
HA !

MY problem is I LOVE men too much !

My aversion is towards immorality.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:09 am

DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:53 am
Stefos wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:13 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 pm
When the Chinese were dismayed that they could not find any mention of such things as filial piety and so on, they composed sūtras to reinforce those values.
And how do we Fair Folk know that the Pali redactors OR Tibetan redactors didn't compose sutras Malcolm?
I'm not Malcolm, but I would like to propose an answer to your questions. First: scholars use evidence and reason to make their claims. The consensus of scholars is that there have been a number of sutras that are canonical in Chinese Buddhism but not in other traditions were composed in China for Chinese audiences. You can research this yourself if you are interested.

Do you have any evidence that any of the Pali or Tibetan redactors composed sutras? And if we suppose for the sake of argument that they did: what would that have to do with the topic at hand? Even if any of the Pali or Tibetan canon is apocryphal, you'd still find scarcely anything in it on the topic of family life for laypersons. This question looks like our old friend whataboutism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
What about the other 17-23 ancient schools and their positing of sexual behavior in regards to right action?
What about them? How are these ancient schools relevant to the discussion at hand? Again: this looks like whataboutism, comrade.
This.
And the same boundaries to discussion apply in the case of vegetarianism being mandatory for Buddhists.
This is a position adopted by certain Sutras accepted by Chinese Buddhists but by few others.
Chinese and Indo-Tibetan Buddhists can co exist..but not when either group claim that theirs is the exclusive truth.
“ When the demon is at your door, in the morning it won’t be there no more
Any major dude will tell you”.

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Stefos » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:39 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:53 am
And how do we Fair Folk know that the Pali redactors OR Tibetan redactors didn't compose sutras Malcolm?
I'm not Malcolm, but I would like to propose an answer to your questions. First: scholars use evidence and reason to make their claims. The consensus of scholars is that there have been a number of sutras that are canonical in Chinese Buddhism but not in other traditions were composed in China for Chinese audiences. You can research this yourself if you are interested.

Do you have any evidence that any of the Pali or Tibetan redactors composed sutras? And if we suppose for the sake of argument that they did: what would that have to do with the topic at hand? Even if any of the Pali or Tibetan canon is apocryphal, you'd still find scarcely anything in it on the topic of family life for laypersons. This question looks like our old friend whataboutism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
What about the other 17-23 ancient schools and their positing of sexual behavior in regards to right action?
What about them? How are these ancient schools relevant to the discussion at hand? Again: this looks like whataboutism, comrade.
[/quote]

Hello DGA,

Thank you for clarification sir.

This is not about "whataboutism"......
it IS about saying: "Look, the Dharma of today says many things from both the ancient schools and Mahayana. What did they say EN TOTO?"
THAT gives the most comprehensive view about Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma.

Thanks,
Stefos
:anjali:

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Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Stefos » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:41 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:08 am
Here's a bit that I imagine almost any Buddhist would agree on:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
Thank you Johnny for posting.

THIS hyperlink helps me.

Stefos
:anjali:

P.S. The reason, again, I posted here was to get a simple answer to Right Action insofar as SMP and the Dharma is concerned...That's it.

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