Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am

The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
Sure, but of course Pure Land Buddhism is more like Abrahamic traditions in many respects than Buddhism as clarified by Nichiren, though Pure Landers may be more tolerant than we are if lacking our sense of urgency. This sense of urgency seems to remind some individuals of the Abrahamic religions, but this is due to their own hang ups.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:54 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:02 pm


That's where I got the 5 prostitutes a day, where legal, rule from.
Specific source please.
It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to this thread at Dhammawheel.

It's the least I can do to curtail the rampant whorephobia so prevalent here.
Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27778
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.
I agree fully, especially after witnessing the effects that sex work has on the workers psyche. It's not pretty.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27778
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:37 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
]Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
That is why householder bodhisattvas should not resort to prostitutes.
I agree fully, especially after witnessing the effects that sex work has on the workers psyche. It's not pretty.
Yes, it has nothing to do with phobias, as one person inaccurately described it, but rather caring for other human beings who are in exploited positions.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
Posts: 1049
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Motova » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:18 pm

What if prostitution becomes a respected trade, like in Firefly?

Image
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:36 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:18 pm
What if prostitution becomes a respected trade, like in Firefly?

Image
And what if pigs became kosher?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:47 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
Sure, but of course Pure Land Buddhism is more like Abrahamic traditions in many respects than Buddhism as clarified by Nichiren, though Pure Landers may be more tolerant than we are if lacking our sense of urgency. This sense of urgency seems to remind some individuals of the Abrahamic religions, but this is due to their own hang ups.
First off:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism


Second:
You are claiming that urgency of practice is a measure of comparison to Abrahamic religions. How is that warranted? How is that not a criticism of any and all Mahayana traditions, inclusive of Nichiren's?

Are you in a position to diagnose the hangups of millions of persons who participate a diverse Mahayana tradition?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27778
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:58 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am

It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to this thread at Dhammawheel.
Dhammanando's opinion is not definitive.

It also does not apply to bodhisattvas, unlike the Mahāyāna sūtra passage I quoted above. Those who consider themselves Mahāyāna practitioners should by all means avoid visiting prostitutes for sexual services.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Ricky
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:39 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Ricky » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:58 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am

It's not a subject that I deal with often, except in these conversations with you and the others, so I'll have to dig up the reference with the exact number. In the meantime, anyone interested, or who would like to search with me, can refer to this thread at Dhammawheel.
Dhammanando's opinion is not definitive.

It also does not apply to bodhisattvas, unlike the Mahāyāna sūtra passage I quoted above. Those who consider themselves Mahāyāna practitioners should by all means avoid visiting prostitutes for sexual services.
I would find his opinion on this matter definitive. He is very knowledgeable when it comes to the earlier texts.

Also a Mahayana practitioner should be able to do whatever he or she wants to as long as it's not harming anyone. There is no precept either in Theravada or Mahayana that outlaws sexual encounters between two consenting adults, whether that's with one's wife or a prostitute. This should be very clear.

Sādhaka
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Sādhaka » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:07 pm

Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:08 pm
Pero wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:55 pm
It might not have been you but for sure it was sourced from some sutra.
Whoever presented this opinion presented it from Berzin's website:

Consider, for example, the discussion about having sex with a prostitute. In both the Indian and the Tibetan texts, having sex with a prostitute is perfectly okay, even for a married man, so long as the man pays for the prostitute.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... ostitution

This what you said:
I thought Buddha said it was ok to go to prostitutes as long as one pays for them himself.
But we can see from the passage that I cited above it is not the case that visiting prostitutes was considered acceptable conduct for a householder bodhisattva.
Hmm I guess it could be so, it was a long time ago. Or perhaps it was Pali.

I believe it was actually Tsongkhapa who said it.

Then perhaps it can be acceptable for lay Tantrayana practitioners, but not for lay Paramitayana practitioners....
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:32 pm

Ricky wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:57 pm
There is no precept either in Theravada or Mahayana that outlaws sexual encounters between two consenting adults...
See now you are heading into tricky territory. For example: If a woman agrees to have sex with you for payment because they need the money to pay the rent and cannot get it any other way are they actually consenting?

Or, given the high incidence of previous/childhood abuse of current sex workers do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or, given the high incidence of drug abuse among sex worker, do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or...

How can consent work when there are so many power imbalances?

How many people here have sex with prostitutes because of a desire to benefit the prostitute and out of compassion, and how many do it just to please their sexual desires?

How many people arguing that having sex with prostitutes is alright from a Buddhist point of view just to rationalise a)thinking with their knob and b)behaviour which they know is unwholesome but they are in denial over?

How does having sex with prostitutes fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9258
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by DGA » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:52 am

At least one member of my family has done sex work to survive (one that I know of). I won't go into details out of respect for this person but his or her experience conforms to the pattern you'd expect from reading the research on the lives of sex workers. It's at least as awful as you think, and probably worse, for the overwhelming majority of those who do sex work, and the stigma of having been a sex worker in any capacity can be harming for the rest of that person's lifetime. It sucks.

Sex workers are people who suffer (in most cases suffer a lot) and are highly deserving of compassion, not insult or derision.

User avatar
Stefos
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:51 am

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Stefos » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:17 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:32 pm
See now you are heading into tricky territory. For example: If a woman agrees to have sex with you for payment because they need the money to pay the rent and cannot get it any other way are they actually consenting?

Or, given the high incidence of previous/childhood abuse of current sex workers do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or, given the high incidence of drug abuse among sex worker, do you really believe they are in a position to make an objective and informed decision to consent to sex with you.

Or...

How can consent work when there are so many power imbalances?

How many people here have sex with prostitutes because of a desire to benefit the prostitute and out of compassion, and how many do it just to please their sexual desires?

How many people arguing that having sex with prostitutes is alright from a Buddhist point of view just to rationalise a)thinking with their knob and b)behaviour which they know is unwholesome but they are in denial over?

How does having sex with prostitutes fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
And now, my friend, perhaps you understand why I've always said "modern Buddhism" and I've raised such a "fuss" about what I perceive is happening in Buddhadharma today: Buddhist sects everywhere with no full agreement with anything other than:
Buddha existed
4 noble truths
8 fold noble path
Beyond, this it's a: "Hey, what's your ""Dharmic path?"" and even then my observations have shown me that there is no interBuddhist dialogue going on in a deep sense of the term, not the "Buddy Buddha" bobblehead asserting that's happened with no in depth understanding of why a sect or yana does things the way it does.

For me, A fundamental RE-understanding what the Buddha came to do and what he actually taught FIRST is the foundation.
Beyond that, these discussions about Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc. along with peoples personal feelings about SMP need to be stopped.
This is what I coined to Malcolm as a "Buddhist confusion or Buddhist Babylon."

Opinions matter little if the actual Buddhadharma is not being nailed down insofar as fundamentals are concerned according to the most ancient sutras available FIRST then we can discuss Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc.

As a turn for discussion here.....Perhaps there should be MORE quoting from the Theravada and Gandharan texts along with the Chinese texts in order to understand S,M,P in the context of Buddhadharma.

This is clear enough to me anyway and perhaps you don't see it like that.........so be it.

:anjali:
Stefos

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1563
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:33 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:15 pm
The Cicada wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:07 pm
"There is One Eternal Buddha and [your name here] is his Prophet" doesn't work, and it's a shame to see it filter in to Dharma discussion.
This is actually standard Nichiren Buddhism and Lotus Buddhism
It might be Nichiren Buddhism, but its not "Lotus Buddhism", "Lotus Buddhism" referring to the Tiāntāi school and what it shares with its offshoot traditions. Nichiren Buddhism alone is not "the Lotus tradition".
The Cicada wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 am
Sure, but of course Pure Land Buddhism is more like Abrahamic traditions in many respects than Buddhism as clarified by Nichiren, though Pure Landers may be more tolerant than we are if lacking our sense of urgency. This sense of urgency seems to remind some individuals of the Abrahamic religions, but this is due to their own hang ups.
I think it depends on what kind of Pure Land on terms of how "urgent" their practice will seem? Some are very radical in their mappō buddhology (dharmology?), I daresay more radical than Nichiren Buddhism, arguing that any significant Buddhic attainment of any sort is impossible in this time. Only the cultivation of faith & aspiration is possible, absolutely nothing else.

If you could clarify what you mean here by 'Abrahamic'? That is lumping together at least 3 very different religions into one, so which aspect of what they have in common were you meaning to stress?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:07 am

Stefos wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:17 am
And now, my friend, perhaps you understand why I've always said "modern Buddhism" and I've raised such a "fuss" about what I perceive is happening in Buddhadharma today...
So you believe that the only proper Buddhist approach is your approach. You want some sort of centralised dogmatism and not intelligent and informed discussion about how things fit into a Buddhist framework. You don't want "modern Buddhism" you want "catholic Buddhism", with a central and infallible "Buddhist pope" dictating what is or is not Buddhism. You want a Buddhism that is an institution, rather than a journey.
For me, A fundamental RE-understanding what the Buddha came to do and what he actually taught FIRST is the foundation.
And who's "first" is the actual first?
Beyond that, these discussions about Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc. along with peoples personal feelings about SMP need to be stopped.
And you are going to stop them? Not around here you are not.
Opinions matter little if the actual Buddhadharma is not being nailed down insofar as fundamentals are concerned according to the most ancient sutras available FIRST then we can discuss Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc.
The most ancient? The oldest physically existing Mahayana text is as old as the oldest physically existing Theravada text. What does that tell you?
...from the Theravada and Gandharan texts along with the Chinese texts...
Who died and made you the authority around here regarding text validity? This is "A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism", that's what the title at the top of the page says. If you don't like it...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde


User avatar
Tiago Simões
Posts: 928
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:08 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:05 pm
What is SMP?
Take your pick:

https://www.google.pt/amp/s/www.urbandi ... P&amp=true

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:30 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:05 pm
What is SMP?
Sexuality, marriage, promiscuity, the subject of the thread. :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Pero
Posts: 2122
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Pero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:36 am
Personally I have no problem with sex workers, I have worked with (adolescent) prostitutes and had friends that were sex workers. The problems is not the girls and boys, it is the Johns. The "people" that USE the sex workers.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:03 pm
There are three things a householding bodhisattva should not do. Which three? One should not go near prostitutes; one should not depend on a man or a woman whose practice of speech and thought differ [from one's own]; and one should not stay in places where cows are slaughtered.

-- Trisaṃvara-nirdeśa-parivarta-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra
Uh oh. :smile:
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:32 pm
How does having sex with prostitutes fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
Dude seriously? How does having sex with any woman fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17129
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Sexuality, Marriage, Promiscuity and the Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:50 pm

Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:42 pm
Dude seriously? How does having sex with any woman fit into the Mahayana lojong practice of considering all sentient beings as your mother?
Easily: you treat the women you have sex with, with the same amount of love and respect that you would afford your mother. The advice is metaphorical, not literal you dingbat! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Locked

Return to “Ethical Conduct”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests