Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:57 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:15 am
TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:25 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:13 pm



Well, you said:


I'm guessing that means you want him to go to prison and would feel satisfaction if he does. I'm also guessing you understand that he would be suffering there, right?
Exactly you are guessing. Where did I say I would be satisfied?

Just to refresh people's memories. I'm not the only one who has stated that Sogyal should spend time in prison. I recall Malcolm stating very categorically the same in this thread, on at least two occasions.
No. I stated that this was a matter for the courts. However, no criminal complaint has brought been against the man so far.
Well it appears you did, on p.18 and again on p.21 of this thread:
Malcolm wrote:I don't see any enlightened people in this game, neither Sogyal, nor the students. It is useless to pretend to be enlightened. It can be compassionate to toss someone in jail.
Malcolm wrote:Sometimes people need a serious time out. Jail can be good for that. However, do not read that as an endorsement for the penal justice system as its stands in the US today. It is way too racist.
I agree with both of your statements, and in fact said as much, that it would be a compassionate outcome for Sogyal.

If anyone needs a "serious time out" in jail as you put it, then it's Sogyal. He has been continuing the abuse for more than three decades. Not even the Jane Doe case was cause enough for him to check himself. Instead he continued with the abuse and it became more extreme and widespread.

Also, there is a case being mounted in France, although I am not sure whether it is criminal or civil. In fact, in recent developments in the case Rigpa's lawyer is suing the complainants lawyer for defamation. So this illustrates they are in complete denial still of any abuse occurring. This is the same management team who covered-up an enabled abuse. This gets back to the original point, do you want to attend Rigpa for teachings knowing they are still denying abuse occurred?

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weitsicht
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by weitsicht » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:19 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:10 am
So any ‘justice’ is only going to come from how the sangha and the broader Buddhist community treats him going forward.
I would like to again raise the issue about the other People involved in Rigpa International who contributed to the Situation by not speaking up, by looking away, by allocating charitable means wrongly, by taking him as a role and doing like him etc.

These People are still there. Rigpa International is still operational.
And as far as a saw, they deny, consider themselves victims of wrong allegations.
With all my compassion I hope for them to cut through their ignorance.

Until then I think I won't enter their sites again.

If a renowned guest not only follows their Invitation but also allows them to conduct the Framework (i.e. refuge and dedication in their style and Arrangement), due to the above a good part of the positive effect is being roiled.

One foul apple in the basket and the whole basket will rot. Sad.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

PeterC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PeterC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:00 am

TRC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:57 am
Also, there is a case being mounted in France, although I am not sure whether it is criminal or civil. In fact, in recent developments in the case Rigpa's lawyer is suing the complainants lawyer for defamation...
http://www.liberation.fr/france/2018/01 ... de_1620015

I don’t know how French libel law works procedurally, or whether Rigpa even has standing given that the defamed party is sogyal. I would guess that Rigpas counsel doesn’t know either - you wouldn’t expect a generalist to. I suspect they would be pretty dumb to risk putting the facts into the public record.

MiphamFan
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:08 am

I hope everyone gets something they deserve but did not dare to hope for.

PeterC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PeterC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:22 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:00 am
TRC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:57 am
Also, there is a case being mounted in France, although I am not sure whether it is criminal or civil. In fact, in recent developments in the case Rigpa's lawyer is suing the complainants lawyer for defamation...
http://www.liberation.fr/france/2018/01 ... de_1620015

I don’t know how French libel law works procedurally, or whether Rigpa even has standing given that the defamed party is sogyal. I would guess that Rigpas counsel doesn’t know either - you wouldn’t expect a generalist to. I suspect they would be pretty dumb to risk putting the facts into the public record.
I’m told that:
1. Suit has to be filed before the tribunal within three months (which accounts for them taking action now)
2. It is primarily a remedy against individuals - Rigpa may fail on that point
3. Two defences; truth, and good faith (which would include warning others of danger and/or trying to address harmful behaviour). Burden of proof on defendant.
4. I find this hard to believe, but the maximum fine is trivial - eur 45k. Maximum one year prison but rarely applied.

This is of course just France. Rigpa would have better options elsewhere.

Simon E.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:46 am

Frankly all this talk of jail time and punishment is hot air..its prapanca.

This is not a comment on Sogyals abusive behaviour which has been severe and is surely beyond doubt.

Its just a comment on the reality of the situation..There will be no jail time for anyone. There probably will be no successful criminal proceedings.

I can understand that people are feeling indignation on behalf of the victims and perhaps on behalf of the Dharma..which incidentally does not need it. But that's all this is..people ventilating.

Nothing in the way of criminal proceedings will succeed.

Just watch...
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:11 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:46 am
Frankly all this talk of jail time and punishment is hot air..its prapanca.

This is not a comment on Sogyals abusive behaviour which has been severe and is surely beyond doubt.

Its just a comment on the reality of the situation..There will be no jail time for anyone. There probably will be no successful criminal proceedings.

I can understand that people are feeling indignation on behalf of the victims and perhaps on behalf of the Dharma..which incidentally does not need it. But that's all this is..people ventilating.

Nothing in the way of criminal proceedings will succeed.

Just watch...
And nothing has changed at Rigpa ... just watch ... https://whatnow727.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... ure-looks/

And people are wondering whether it's OK to go back there and you Simon E. seem to think it is and advise them so.

I would question your judgement.

Simon E.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:35 pm

Please feel free to question my judgement.
I replied to a particular question from an individual. I think for an individual to attend specific teachings/instructions is likely to be fine. All sorts of safeguards will now be in place.
Capable teachers and instructors who are entirely unconnected with the scandals are functioning within Rigpa which is a large organisation.
I also added 'be vigilant'.

All of the above would also be my reply to those asking about the Triratna organisation.
I know personally some fine teachers and students within that group.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

PeterC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PeterC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:03 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:35 pm
Please feel free to question my judgement.
I replied to a particular question from an individual. I think for an individual to attend specific teachings/instructions is likely to be fine. All sorts of safeguards will now be in place.
Capable teachers and instructors who are entirely unconnected with the scandals are functioning within Rigpa which is a large organisation.
I also added 'be vigilant'.

All of the above would also be my reply to those asking about the Triratna organisation.
I know personally some fine teachers and students within that group.
FWBO/Triratna? Really? Would you seriously send someone to an organization founded by, and which still defends, a charlatan and an abuser?

I think most people agree that the person asking about receiving a specific teaching should just go. I certainly do. But that’s going into a Rigpa center to receive a specific teaching with no further affiliation to the organization. Very different from advising them to become meaningfully involved with Rigpa.

This isn’t the 1970s - there are many very accessible teachers in all lineages whose reputation is above reproach. There’s no need for anyone to affiliate to an organization like Rigpa or Triratna. And since most teachers giving empowerments in Rigpa were guest stars, all existing members of Rigpa could, if they chose, continue to study with lamas outside that sangha.

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:32 pm

TRC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:57 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:15 am
TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:25 pm

Exactly you are guessing. Where did I say I would be satisfied?

Just to refresh people's memories. I'm not the only one who has stated that Sogyal should spend time in prison. I recall Malcolm stating very categorically the same in this thread, on at least two occasions.
No. I stated that this was a matter for the courts. However, no criminal complaint has brought been against the man so far.
Well it appears you did, on p.18 and again on p.21 of this thread:
Observing that it may be a compassionate outcome for a person to spend some time incarcerated for a crime they have been convicted of is a far cry from praying for someone's incarceration.

Why would it be compassionate? In order to prevent them from committing other similar crimes. As I observed, however, Sogyal has yet to be brought up on criminal charges. The way it works in a Democracy is that everyone is entitled to their day in court. Jane Doe had her day and opted for payment rather than punishment, probably because her lawyer advised her to take the settlement rather than get bogged down in a lengthy court case with a less than certain outcome.

In other news:

Mary Finnigan writes:


Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Simon E.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:40 pm

I wouldn't 'send' anyone anywhere.

If someone asked me whether I would recommend learning the basics of samatha or metta bhavana at their local Triratna centre, I would, with some qualification..
It's 90 year old founder has not had a public role for some years.
There are a number of teachers/instructors within that organisation who do a good job. They are not Gurus and they do not pretend to be.
Likewise Rigpa which is a very large organisation with many centres and many experienced instructors who have no connection to Sogyals shenanigans.

These things find their own level in my experience.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:47 pm

TRC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:57 am
This gets back to the original point, do you want to attend Rigpa for teachings knowing they are still denying abuse occurred?
If there were some teachings I really thought I needed being given by a lama I respected at a Rigpa center than I would go without hesitation. I would also still watch a film produced by Miramax.

Sogyal may very well be the Harvey Weinstein of Tibetan Buddhism, but not everything he has done or sponsored is entirely bad.

I know it is fashionable now in the days of the #metoo movement to boycott anything and everything someone accused of sexual misconduct may have been involved with, but I think that it is extremely short-sighted, a bandaid, not a cure.

Also, I am quite certain that Rigpa will survive Sogyal. There are literally thousands of people who don't care if or don't believe that Sogyal has actually done anything wrong. And Sogyal has colon cancer -- it is highly unlikely that he will last out another decade.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:49 pm

PeterC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:03 pm
I think most people agree that the person asking about receiving a specific teaching should just go. I certainly do. But that’s going into a Rigpa center to receive a specific teaching with no further affiliation to the organization. Very different from advising them to become meaningfully involved with Rigpa.
We can express our opinion, but we cannot condition people.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Virgo
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:47 pm
it is highly unlikely that he will last out another decade.
It's very unlikely.

Kevin
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CicadaCanto
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by CicadaCanto » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:56 pm

I have no samaya with Sogyal Rinpoche. Perhaps some lineages of instruction I've received went through him, but it's not been said.

So for me I ask myself how to take this whole event as a personal teaching and instruction.

Thoughts? I don't particularly have an answer.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:32 pm
In other news:

Mary Finnigan writes:




"Frogyal" is pretty good, I have to admit.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Grigoris
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:50 pm

Unsubstantiated gossip by somebody with a chip on their shoulder. We are really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel with this thread.
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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:50 pm
Unsubstantiated gossip by somebody with a chip on their shoulder. We are really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel with this thread.
Well, DW is mostly unsubstantiated gossip.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

philji
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by philji » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:50 pm
Unsubstantiated gossip by somebody with a chip on their shoulder. We are really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel with this thread.
Here , here....Is the way of tibetan buddhism in the 21 century...name calling, juvenile gossip mongering. How sad.

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:32 pm
TRC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:57 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:15 am


No. I stated that this was a matter for the courts. However, no criminal complaint has brought been against the man so far.
Well it appears you did, on p.18 and again on p.21 of this thread:
Observing that it may be a compassionate outcome for a person to spend some time incarcerated for a crime they have been convicted of is a far cry from praying for someone's incarceration.

Why would it be compassionate? In order to prevent them from committing other similar crimes. As I observed, however, Sogyal has yet to be brought up on criminal charges. The way it works in a Democracy is that everyone is entitled to their day in court. Jane Doe had her day and opted for payment rather than punishment, probably because her lawyer advised her to take the settlement rather than get bogged down in a lengthy court case with a less than certain outcome.

In other news:

Mary Finnigan writes:


This looks a lot like deflection by not acknowledging that you did actually call for Sogyal’s incarceration when you stated you didn’t, as well as another attempt at misrepresenting what I said. Please show me where I stated that I was "praying for someone's incarceration".

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