Context of Pointing out instructions

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csmorg96
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Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by csmorg96 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am

Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am

I have a related, probably really dumb, question. So, I'm doing my ngondro, and I believe after that I may receive trekchod instruction. How does pointing out instructions fit into my developmental plan? I asked my mentor about pointing out instructions and got a vague response about perhaps if I have good karma I'll get it.

I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?

amanitamusc
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by amanitamusc » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:36 am

In the Dzogchen context there is oral,symbolic and and direct introduction.
This is explained very well in https://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Way-Ligh ... 1559391359

csmorg96
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by csmorg96 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:46 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:36 am
In the Dzogchen context there is oral,symbolic and and direct introduction.
This is explained very well in https://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Way-Ligh ... 1559391359
Yes, I have read that. The question remains...

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Virgo
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:19 am

csmorg96 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am
Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?
Well if the teacher pointed out the nature of mind that is good. It sounds like a Dzogchen pointing out.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxPcu7F7gWg

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:20 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am
I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?
Yes.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxPcu7F7gWg

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:45 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am
I have a related, probably really dumb, question. So, I'm doing my ngondro, and I believe after that I may receive trekchod instruction. How does pointing out instructions fit into my developmental plan? I asked my mentor about pointing out instructions and got a vague response about perhaps if I have good karma I'll get it.

I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?
If you had ChNNs transmission, he is not a teacher that emphasizes ngondro as far as mandala offering etc. goes, I would ask your mentor how to approach it, if I were in your shoes.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:59 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:45 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am
I have a related, probably really dumb, question. So, I'm doing my ngondro, and I believe after that I may receive trekchod instruction. How does pointing out instructions fit into my developmental plan? I asked my mentor about pointing out instructions and got a vague response about perhaps if I have good karma I'll get it.

I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?
If you had ChNNs transmission, he is not a teacher that emphasizes ngondro as far as mandala offering etc. goes, I would ask your mentor how to approach it, if I were in your shoes.
I did and I shall.

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heart
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by heart » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:32 am

csmorg96 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am
Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?
You can talk about the nature of mind, on an intellectual level, but if it is pointed-out you need to recognise it. That means having the experience, so yes you would know.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by heart » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:46 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am
I have a related, probably really dumb, question. So, I'm doing my ngondro, and I believe after that I may receive trekchod instruction. How does pointing out instructions fit into my developmental plan? I asked my mentor about pointing out instructions and got a vague response about perhaps if I have good karma I'll get it.

I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?
Yes, some Lamas do like that, first ngondro then pointing-out. But there is no rule actually. You need a good connection with the lama and that is certainly a "good karma". Some do it openly every retreat (ChNNR), some will do it whenever they feel there is a auspicious occasion. Some will only do it in private.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by PeterC » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:51 am

csmorg96 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am
Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?
It’s possible to have a teacher say the words and you not get it. It’s also possible for the teacher to do the pointing out without saying “I’m now going to...”, and though as Magnus says you may have experience, if you’d never heard of pointing out you might not know what it was.

In any case it’s a bit besides the point, and you probably shouldn’t spend any time thinking about it, since whatever does or doesn’t happen, you should ask your teacher how/what to practice afterwards, and just go from there. ChNN explicitly tells students the scope of what they can practice after direct introduction. Other teachers do not give you that degree of latitude. But any teacher will respond clearly and specifically to “what should I practice now”.

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by heart » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:05 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:51 am
csmorg96 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am
Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?
It’s possible to have a teacher say the words and you not get it. It’s also possible for the teacher to do the pointing out without saying “I’m now going to...”, and though as Magnus says you may have experience, if you’d never heard of pointing out you might not know what it was.

In any case it’s a bit besides the point, and you probably shouldn’t spend any time thinking about it, since whatever does or doesn’t happen, you should ask your teacher how/what to practice afterwards, and just go from there. ChNN explicitly tells students the scope of what they can practice after direct introduction. Other teachers do not give you that degree of latitude. But any teacher will respond clearly and specifically to “what should I practice now”.
I agree, it might not be announced in any way. Also, having the direct introduction will not really effect what practice you do, just how you do it. Also many people need to receive the pointing-out not one but many times before they get it. And even if they don't get it they might get it later by doing practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by Vasana » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:22 am

heart wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:32 am
csmorg96 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am
Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?
You can talk about the nature of mind, on an intellectual level, but if it is pointed-out you need to recognise it. That means having the experience, so yes you would know.

/magnus
You might not have absolute confidence in the experience and be free of doubts however, hence the other Dzogchen 'preliminaries'.

*edit* just saw this,
And even if they don't get it they might get it later by doing practice.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by florin » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:13 pm

csmorg96 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am
Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?
If your question is whether you would know if you received the actual pointing , no you wouldn't necessarily.
New disciples that are very new to the teaching dont always know how the pointing out sounds and what to look for. You would definitely know if you were told beforehand that that is what you will be receiving.
Some teachers quite often give instructions that sound like a general teaching but they go to the essence and those people who are familiar with the teaching in general and pointing out instructions in particular they would know that the teacher speaks about the real thing and most essential aspect of the teaching. So in order to know what he essential instructions look like you would have to be a little bit familiar before hand with what the terminology is, the particular symbols used and what is actually introduced.

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:48 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am
I have a related, probably really dumb, question. So, I'm doing my ngondro, and I believe after that I may receive trekchod instruction. How does pointing out instructions fit into my developmental plan? I asked my mentor about pointing out instructions and got a vague response about perhaps if I have good karma I'll get it.

I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?
What makes you believe that the karma that lead to you watching the webcast was not partly a consequence of the ngondro you are engaged in? After all: nothing is independent. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

TaTa
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by TaTa » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:01 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:48 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am
I have a related, probably really dumb, question. So, I'm doing my ngondro, and I believe after that I may receive trekchod instruction. How does pointing out instructions fit into my developmental plan? I asked my mentor about pointing out instructions and got a vague response about perhaps if I have good karma I'll get it.

I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?
What makes you believe that the karma that lead to you watching the webcast was not partly a consequence of the ngondro you are engaged in? After all: nothing is independent. ;)
I second this. Personally i feel that ngondro really help things unfold for me and get conection with wonderfull techears and dharma.

Some teachers beside chnn also givepointing out instructions to complement ngondro (or viceversa). I think its really a blessing, personaly i understood ngondro practice a lot mote after reciving it.

Rejoice!

TaTa
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by TaTa » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:03 pm

:good:
florin wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:13 pm
csmorg96 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:57 am
Are pointing out instructions always explicity identified before or after they are given? I've been in two separate situations in the past week where two separate teachers told me what the nature of mind was. One was a formal teaching in a room full of students, another was in an informal conversation. Would I know if I had received pointing out instructions? Is this even worth trying to figure out?
If your question is whether you would know if you received the actual pointing , no you wouldn't necessarily.
New disciples that are very new to the teaching dont always know how the pointing out sounds and what to look for. You would definitely know if you were told beforehand that that is what you will be receiving.
Some teachers quite often give instructions that sound like a general teaching but they go to the essence and those people who are familiar with the teaching in general and pointing out instructions in particular they would know that the teacher speaks about the real thing and most essential aspect of the teaching. So in order to know what he essential instructions look like you would have to be a little bit familiar before hand with what the terminology is, the particular symbols used and what is actually introduced.
:good:

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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by PeterC » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:39 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:05 am
I agree, it might not be announced in any way. Also, having the direct introduction will not really effect what practice you do, just how you do it. Also many people need to receive the pointing-out not one but many times before they get it. And even if they don't get it they might get it later by doing practice.

/magnus
I suspect we may have some teachers in common...

The last point above is critical. Probably the majority of people don't recognize the nature of mind when the instruction is given. But a lot of things become clearer in retrospect after serious practice.

There's a lot that could be said about this topic. But there probably isn't much point in discussing it either.

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Context of Pointing out instructions

Post by TharpaChodron » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:51 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:48 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:01 am
I have a related, probably really dumb, question. So, I'm doing my ngondro, and I believe after that I may receive trekchod instruction. How does pointing out instructions fit into my developmental plan? I asked my mentor about pointing out instructions and got a vague response about perhaps if I have good karma I'll get it.

I was online for a webcast transmission so I guess it can be a total independent experience?
What makes you believe that the karma that lead to you watching the webcast was not partly a consequence of the ngondro you are engaged in? After all: nothing is independent. ;)
Indeed. And frankly, I did manage to be there for the webcast with some amazingly good timing. Thanks for the reminder about interconnectivity and all that jazz. :)

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