The acceptable bounds of behavior - Split from discussion of Shoho Jisso Sho

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Minobu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:04 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:46 pm
Queequeg wrote:I don't know what to call that teaching....
As a tendency within religions, it’s called ‘antinomianism’. Its definition, in the context of Christianity, is
Definition of antinomian. 1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. 2 : one who rejects a socially established morality.
The parallels are pretty clear. It’s also interesting that the same kinds of tendencies can occur in totally different religious cultures.
don't know if i got this but it was sort of like that in the gakki....as long as you did their thing anything was forgiven/brushed under the rug...

Now i see it as a necessary evil...in the sense if you don't find forgiveness you get crushed under guilt and it's all over...
so one needs forgiveness or they just give up....

when we think in terms of how many human like lives we have had.and for how many kalpas ..pretty much anything and everything you did...from rape...to killing...

it's weird but i really get the most compassionate feelings from this Nichiren group online...other buddhists just don;t seem to project the compassion...

we must develop compassion in order to not commit those dreaded things in future lives.

i think Lotus Buddhism really works the kinks out of us and we grow very compassionate...

we will take this with us into the next life...as we have in this life....pretty much most of the shakabukkued are nice people....met very few real bad ones...

narhwal90
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:26 am

Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:04 pm

don't know if i got this but it was sort of like that in the gakki....as long as you did their thing anything was forgiven/brushed under the rug...
I have never yet heard a lecture in SGI saying the practice gives license or a pardon. In fact, the repeated instruction is to be an example- to demonstrate the effectiveness of the practice by turning the destructive traits into strengths.

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Queequeg
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:10 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:26 am
Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:04 pm

don't know if i got this but it was sort of like that in the gakki....as long as you did their thing anything was forgiven/brushed under the rug...
I have never yet heard a lecture in SGI saying the practice gives license or a pardon. In fact, the repeated instruction is to be an example- to demonstrate the effectiveness of the practice by turning the destructive traits into strengths.
I don't recall SGI teachers condoning anti-social or destructive behavior. I think, in comparison to many more conservative or traditional Buddhist communities, they are more welcoming to diverse lifestyles. But I see this as living the teaching of recognizing that the myriad dharmas are the functions of Myohorengekyo. They're not going to turn you away from a meeting because of your lifestyle or habits; there is confidence in the practice that if one undertakes it, one will grow to their full potential - whatever form and experience that might be. Their teachings are to not judge beforehand.

How many communities are welcoming to transvestites with a five o'clock shadow and ripped fishnets? I've chanted next to people like that at SGI meetings and it was always cool. This was way back before people like that were welcomed into the mainstream. But that doesn't mean SGI promoted a libertine approach to life (not to equate being a transvestite to a libertine lifestyle, but you know, in context, this was NYC in the early 80s, and it was obvious the fella came to the YMD meeting on Sunday mornings straight from whatever he was doing the night before). Rather, everyone is a Buddha to be. "I would never disparage you because you will be a Buddha." That's what they teach and practice.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Minobu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:17 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:26 am
Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:04 pm

don't know if i got this but it was sort of like that in the gakki....as long as you did their thing anything was forgiven/brushed under the rug...
I have never yet heard a lecture in SGI saying the practice gives license or a pardon. In fact, the repeated instruction is to be an example- to demonstrate the effectiveness of the practice by turning the destructive traits into strengths.
Well maybe stuff changed since i was in.
i could give you examples of mother being a chapter chief helping keep a district chief and wife together.
she would show up at me mum's battered from another drunken nightmare. couple of times with strangle marks...me mom was praised for keeping them together in order for them to put on the weekend meeting...more than once..

i'm not talking murder here...but a lot of real vile behaviour was forgiven. and if you posted my whole post you would see my take on it...for this was discussed.

there were a lot of stuff that people did and were not shunned...the only shunning was when i joined Nichiren shoshu...then out right lies about my person were spread....years later i never got an apology when i met a high up leader in the street...brought the subject up and he just explained stuff like ..."that all that has changed now...it was a complicated time....lot of anger ..."

I'm just saying "don't know if i got this but it was sort of like that in the gakki....as long as you did their thing anything was forgiven/brushed under the rug..."
anything is a little over the top..or is it?

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The acceptable bounds of behavior - Split from discussion of Shoho Jisso Sho

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:33 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:17 pm
Well maybe stuff changed since i was in.
i could give you examples of mother being a chapter chief helping keep a district chief and wife together.
she would show up at me mum's battered from another drunken nightmare. couple of times with strangle marks...me mom was praised for keeping them together in order for them to put on the weekend meeting...more than once..

i'm not talking murder here...but a lot of real vile behaviour was forgiven. and if you posted my whole post you would see my take on it...for this was discussed.

there were a lot of stuff that people did and were not shunned...the only shunning was when i joined Nichiren shoshu...then out right lies about my person were spread....years later i never got an apology when i met a high up leader in the street...brought the subject up and he just explained stuff like ..."that all that has changed now...it was a complicated time....lot of anger ..."

I'm just saying "don't know if i got this but it was sort of like that in the gakki....as long as you did their thing anything was forgiven/brushed under the rug..."
anything is a little over the top..or is it?
I don't know the details of what you are talking about, but I can relate to an extent.

In the context of SGI, a lot of real life stuff happens and comes up. If you're happy and content with a house and picket fence, 2.5 kids and happy marriage, you're probably not looking for anything - maybe some lifestyle enhancers like yoga and lattes. If you are willing to take up a radically different approach to life, its probably because stuff has hit the fan, or you have a deep seated dissatisfaction with the way things are for you. I saw marriage counseling, I saw relationship counseling... it usually boiled down to advice to trust the wisdom that emerges through your practice and then having the strength to follow through with that wisdom.

DV is a complicated thing. I have no idea what this woman was going through, what her experience was, and what your mother counseled to her. I also don't know if the way you're casting your mother's involvement is an accurate assessment of what happened. Did your mother really counsel this woman to take a beating so that a meeting could take place? Or was that the tone deaf response of others to the course of events?

These days it seems everything has a happy gloss - people's facebook feeds show happy lives and all that. We don't see the real stuff that goes on that is not happy, except when it erupts into tragedy and makes the news. But in a close religious community, you become the extended family and you see a lot of raw stuff go down.

That said, I'm not saying that kind of misanthropic crap doesn't happen. I think you will see that kind of stuff in all human communities. Does not make it right or OK.

That said, there is one sin that is unacceptable - and that's joining "the temple". I'm not surprised you got attacked for that. I've seen similar. That schism was nasty and brought out a lot of the worst. I imagine it has to have mellowed by now.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Minobu
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Re: The acceptable bounds of behavior - Split from discussion of Shoho Jisso Sho

Post by Minobu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:56 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:33 pm
Minobu wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:17 pm
Well maybe stuff changed since i was in.
i could give you examples of mother being a chapter chief helping keep a district chief and wife together.
she would show up at me mum's battered from another drunken nightmare. couple of times with strangle marks...me mom was praised for keeping them together in order for them to put on the weekend meeting...more than once..

i'm not talking murder here...but a lot of real vile behaviour was forgiven. and if you posted my whole post you would see my take on it...for this was discussed.

there were a lot of stuff that people did and were not shunned...the only shunning was when i joined Nichiren shoshu...then out right lies about my person were spread....years later i never got an apology when i met a high up leader in the street...brought the subject up and he just explained stuff like ..."that all that has changed now...it was a complicated time....lot of anger ..."

I'm just saying "don't know if i got this but it was sort of like that in the gakki....as long as you did their thing anything was forgiven/brushed under the rug..."
anything is a little over the top..or is it?
I don't know the details of what you are talking about, but I can relate to an extent.

In the context of SGI, a lot of real life stuff happens and comes up. If you're happy and content with a house and picket fence, 2.5 kids and happy marriage, you're probably not looking for anything - maybe some lifestyle enhancers like yoga and lattes. If you are willing to take up a radically different approach to life, its probably because stuff has hit the fan, or you have a deep seated dissatisfaction with the way things are for you. I saw marriage counseling, I saw relationship counseling... it usually boiled down to advice to trust the wisdom that emerges through your practice and then having the strength to follow through with that wisdom.

DV is a complicated thing. I have no idea what this woman was going through, what her experience was, and what your mother counseled to her. I also don't know if the way you're casting your mother's involvement is an accurate assessment of what happened. Did your mother really counsel this woman to take a beating so that a meeting could take place? Or was that the tone deaf response of others to the course of events?

These days it seems everything has a happy gloss - people's facebook feeds show happy lives and all that. We don't see the real stuff that goes on that is not happy, except when it erupts into tragedy and makes the news. But in a close religious community, you become the extended family and you see a lot of raw stuff go down.

That said, I'm not saying that kind of misanthropic crap doesn't happen. I think you will see that kind of stuff in all human communities. Does not make it right or OK.

That said, there is one sin that is unacceptable - and that's joining "the temple". I'm not surprised you got attacked for that. I've seen similar. That schism was nasty and brought out a lot of the worst. I imagine it has to have mellowed by now.
As for my mother's advice...it was hard coded Gakki training...

She explained to the woman this was her Karma...She councilled her to keep chanting for this had to be eradicated from her life..

she pointed out her previous marriage had the same identical outcome...her showing up at my mother's with bruises...

so with her second marriage she councilled her to change her Karma with the guy...for the next guy and the next guy it would be the same so get it together now, with the practice...

Do i sound like i am making up this shit?...Does it ring Gakki?


the guy was told to stop , but there was this underlining thing that her kids could not grasp...why are they still encouraging them to stay together and work it out...

Anyway on a lighter note...at that wedding my mother misspoke ...she walked up to them and offered her condolences instead of congratulations...

Me mum told me of the look on their faces and the people around them....priceless....wish i was there...lol...

it was a running joke for years.

narhwal90
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Re: The acceptable bounds of behavior - Split from discussion of Shoho Jisso Sho

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:04 pm

SGI like any community will have the same kinds of problems with addiction and violence, there's not much that a religious institution can do about the battered wife of an alcoholic other than be supportive, which it sounds like that chapter chief was trying to do. Accepting the fact of unacceptable behavior and not condoning, but still trying to engage and support and encourage and so maybe contribute to a change seems to me what we're supposed to be about. As far as the battered wife of an addict, unless the SGI leader had experience in DV situations theres not much constructive and plenty of destructive advise to be given regardless of her practice.. same thing happens across the board; quite often peoples' helpful instincts are counterproductive no matter what creed/church/whatever they follow.

As you allude to Q, I've run across some pretty diverse characters in NSA and SGI. Some stay, some stay diverse too and its great to practice alongside them. Things were pretty unpleasant in the early 90's over the "temple"- the issue really doesn't come up nowadays in a large way. There are local mentions of folks coming across some lapsed SGI member, or someone trying a DIY practice but thats kind of it- the palpable opposition of the old days is gone though SGI pubs occasionally retell their side of the story.

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Re: The acceptable bounds of behavior - Split from discussion of Shoho Jisso Sho

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:22 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:56 pm
As for my mother's advice...it was hard coded Gakki training...

She explained to the woman this was her Karma...She councilled her to keep chanting for this had to be eradicated from her life..

she pointed out her previous marriage had the same identical outcome...her showing up at my mother's with bruises...

so with her second marriage she councilled her to change her Karma with the guy...for the next guy and the next guy it would be the same so get it together now, with the practice...

Do i sound like i am making up this shit?...Does it ring Gakki?
That sounds right. That's not just Soka Gakkai, though. That's the teaching on karma. Its not necessarily something we want to hear, and the Karma teachings tend to get played down.

Until we change our karma, the world around us will keep manifesting in the same way. That doesn't mean a battered woman should stay with her batterer. She does, however, need to take up a tremendous effort to overcome that karma. Karma is deep. Karma is pernicious. It kicks us in the gut even when we think we've completely protected ourselves from it.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

narhwal90
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Re: The acceptable bounds of behavior - Split from discussion of Shoho Jisso Sho

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm

Spend some time in Alanon meetings and you'll hear about the same sorts of well-meaning counseling having been offered by all kinds of people in all kinds of situations- there is nothing special about SGI in this regard. "Keep doing what you're doing and you'll keep getting what you're getting" is the rule for the addict and for the family of the addict. I suppose that could be viewed as a form of karma.

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Minobu
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Re: The acceptable bounds of behavior - Split from discussion of Shoho Jisso Sho

Post by Minobu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:38 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Spend some time in Alanon meetings and you'll hear about the same sorts of well-meaning counseling having been offered by all kinds of people in all kinds of situations- there is nothing special about SGI in this regard. "Keep doing what you're doing and you'll keep getting what you're getting" is the rule for the addict and for the family of the addict. I suppose that could be viewed as a form of karma.
well if you read me you see i agree with you...everything i wrote is just observation and arriving at the conclusion>
Minobu wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:04 pm

Now i see it as a necessary evil...in the sense if you don't find forgiveness you get crushed under guilt and it's all over...
so one needs forgiveness or they just give up....

i feel like the messenger is getting shot lol.

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