The regenerative potential of primordial state

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florin
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The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by florin » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:13 pm

First, is there such a thing and second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on our mundane worldly situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Malcolm
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:30 pm

florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:13 pm
First, is there such a thing and second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on our mundane worldly situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.

The primordial state is not a state, it isn't a thing and it does not impede the arising and cessation of phenomena in anyway, nor does it support the arising and cessation of phenomena in any way. This is why we have to rely on secondary practices for health, wealth, and so on.

It has no qualities, but when it is realized, every quality arises. It has no faults, but when it is not realized, every fault arises.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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cyril
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by cyril » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:30 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:13 pm
First, is there such a thing and second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on our mundane worldly situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.

The primordial state is not a state, it isn't a thing and it does not impede the arising and cessation of phenomena in anyway, nor does it support the arising and cessation of phenomena in any way. This is why we have to rely on secondary practices for health, wealth, and so on.

It has no qualities, but when it is realized, every quality arises. It has no faults, but when it is not realized, every fault arises.
Malcolm, I remember you wrote somewhere (I think it was in a thread about Dorje Drollo) that when you are fully integrated, everything becomes your servant. Wouldn't that extend to controlling the five elements and so on?
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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florin
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by florin » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:30 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:13 pm
First, is there such a thing and second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on our mundane worldly situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.

The primordial state is not a state, it isn't a thing and it does not impede the arising and cessation of phenomena in anyway, nor does it support the arising and cessation of phenomena in any way. This is why we have to rely on secondary practices for health, wealth, and so on.

It has no qualities, but when it is realized, every quality arises. It has no faults, but when it is not realized, every fault arises.
CNNR calls it a "state", primordial state.
"....and rest in that state", remember ?

Isnt "regeneration" a quality?
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Malcolm
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:05 pm

florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:30 pm
florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:13 pm
First, is there such a thing and second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on our mundane worldly situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.

The primordial state is not a state, it isn't a thing and it does not impede the arising and cessation of phenomena in anyway, nor does it support the arising and cessation of phenomena in any way. This is why we have to rely on secondary practices for health, wealth, and so on.

It has no qualities, but when it is realized, every quality arises. It has no faults, but when it is not realized, every fault arises.
CNNR calls it a "state", primordial state.
"....and rest in that state", remember ?

Isnt "regeneration" a quality?
He has also called the basis "George." So rest in George and see what happens.

Seriously though, the basis is unconditioned, your body and mind are conditioned. The unconditioned has no effect on the conditioned, and vice versa. If you are capable of resting in the basis, you do not need to regenerate your body at all. But if resting in the basis could regenerate the body, than no buddha would have ever gone to parinirvana.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Fa Dao
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Fa Dao » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:47 pm

Ok, so how does it work then if a master say puts his handprint in solid stone or does something else that appears to be impossible by what we know of the laws of physics?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Ok, so how does it work then if a master say puts his handprint in solid stone or does something else that appears to be impossible by what we know of the laws of physics?
Chogyal Namkahi Norbu and I were in his cabin once, and he showed me a picture of a Tibetan man, who with his siddhi had supposedly planted a wooden staff in a cliff face. He said, "I can do that too, if you give me a bucket of concrete...he he he."

Seriously, if one is an ārya in the equipoise of nondual emptiness, then such things are supposedly possible. There is a famous tale about Candrakirti being jeered by a student for bumping his head into a pillar at Nalanda, Candra then passed his hand right through that pillar and the student became embarrassed.

I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Fa Dao
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Fa Dao » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:03 pm

agreed...thanks for the input
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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florin
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by florin » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Ok, so how does it work then if a master say puts his handprint in solid stone or does something else that appears to be impossible by what we know of the laws of physics?
Chogyal Namkahi Norbu and I were in his cabin once, and he showed me a picture of a Tibetan man, who with his siddhi had supposedly planted a wooden staff in a cliff face. He said, "I can do that too, if you give me a bucket of concrete...he he he."

Seriously, if one is an ārya in the equipoise of nondual emptiness, then such things are supposedly possible. There is a famous tale about Candrakirti being jeered by a student for bumping his head into a pillar at Nalanda, Candra then passed his hand right through that pillar and the student became embarrassed.

I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.
But what do you make of the example that CNNR sometimes gives where someone who is very familiar with integration could in case of thirst just visualize white light and reintegrate with the essence of water ? Of course this probably happens very very late on the path and to very few , but still...
Based on this same principle why would not be possible to regenerate or replenish lets say the damaged or lack of fire essence in a given organ just by either visualizing the colour of the fire or by lighting a fire nearby resting in the primordial state and integrating with the essence of fire ?
These types of examples play hand in hand with my first question regarding whether the regeneration is possible while resting in the primordial state.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Malcolm
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:25 pm

florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
Fa Dao wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:47 pm
Ok, so how does it work then if a master say puts his handprint in solid stone or does something else that appears to be impossible by what we know of the laws of physics?
Chogyal Namkahi Norbu and I were in his cabin once, and he showed me a picture of a Tibetan man, who with his siddhi had supposedly planted a wooden staff in a cliff face. He said, "I can do that too, if you give me a bucket of concrete...he he he."

Seriously, if one is an ārya in the equipoise of nondual emptiness, then such things are supposedly possible. There is a famous tale about Candrakirti being jeered by a student for bumping his head into a pillar at Nalanda, Candra then passed his hand right through that pillar and the student became embarrassed.

I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.
But what do you make of the example that CNNR sometimes gives where someone who is very familiar with integration could in case of thirst just visualize white light and reintegrate with the essence of water ? Of course this probably happens very very late on the path and to very few , but still...
Based on this same principle why would not be possible to regenerate or replenish lets say the damaged or lack of fire essence in a given organ just by either visualizing the colour of the fire or by lighting a fire nearby resting in the primordial state and integrating with the essence of fire ?
These types of examples play hand in hand with my first question regarding whether the regeneration is possible while resting in the primordial state.

Hi Florin, that is a good question.

There are two levels of ye shes, pristine consciousness. The first level is the three pristine consciousnesses of the basis, essence, nature, and energy they are ultimate, unconditioned, etc. Then there are five relative pristine consciousnesses which are something like the rtsal of the basis, which when not recognized are reified as the five elements.

Someone who is very advanced in the second vision, or in the third vision, may very well be able to live merely off the five pristine consciousnesses through dharmakāya chulen. I would not count on anyone else being able to match this accomplishment who has not reached a high level of practice of thogal, as in the case of Nyala Pema Dudul who lived off dharmakāya chulen in the manner you are suggesting. He only managed to do this for a few years before attaining the body of light, or so we are told.

In tregchod there is no integration with the elements in this way.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Quay » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
...
I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.
I asked a particular Rinpoche with whom I was well acquainted about such things once. He basically said that although such things are possible and with some pretty common, it was best not to do so in front of people because they would get caught up in the display and miss the point of it all. Instead of a help it would be a great hindrance to others.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:08 pm

3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:11 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:08 pm
3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html

:anjali:
Yes, supposedly the Buddha gained power over his life force, but because Ananda was a slouch, he neglected to ask the Buddha to stick around for a thousand years, and so the Buddha died three months later.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Virgo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm

If a person rests in the natural state, their energies become harmonized, but it doesn't mean that all their chronic afflictions and diseases caused by conflict of the elements are removed. As Malcolm said, if it did, someone who was realized would be able to live in perpetuity.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by fckw » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:34 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm
If a person rests in the natural state, their energies become harmonized, but it doesn't mean that all their chronic afflictions and diseases caused by conflict of the elements are removed. As Malcolm said, if it did, someone who was realized would be able to live in perpetuity.

Kevin
Would tummo practice achieve this, i.e. the balancing of energies and removal of afflictions?

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Virgo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:42 pm

fckw wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:34 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm
If a person rests in the natural state, their energies become harmonized, but it doesn't mean that all their chronic afflictions and diseases caused by conflict of the elements are removed. As Malcolm said, if it did, someone who was realized would be able to live in perpetuity.

Kevin
Would tummo practice achieve this, i.e. the balancing of energies and removal of afflictions?
Nope. We will all die.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by SunWuKong » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:28 am

Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:42 pm
fckw wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:34 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm
If a person rests in the natural state, their energies become harmonized, but it doesn't mean that all their chronic afflictions and diseases caused by conflict of the elements are removed. As Malcolm said, if it did, someone who was realized would be able to live in perpetuity.

Kevin
Would tummo practice achieve this, i.e. the balancing of energies and removal of afflictions?
Nope. We will all die.

Kevin
Suppose one were to use ones powers to effect a specific healing. Then the universe can’t proceed along as though one hadn’t. It goes a different direction. That’s why to exercise Wisdom is a prerequisite for such actions.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:03 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:11 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:08 pm
3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."

4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html

:anjali:
Yes, supposedly the Buddha gained power over his life force, but because Ananda was a slouch, he neglected to ask the Buddha to stick around for a thousand years, and so the Buddha died three months later.
Not for a thousand years, but for an entire Aeon or Kalpa.

Kappam va tittheyya kappavasesam va

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... 5796#15796
fckw wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:34 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm
If a person rests in the natural state, their energies become harmonized, but it doesn't mean that all their chronic afflictions and diseases caused by conflict of the elements are removed. As Malcolm said, if it did, someone who was realized would be able to live in perpetuity.

Kevin
Would tummo practice achieve this, i.e. the balancing of energies and removal of afflictions?
What Buddha said he practiced was THE FOUR BASES OF POWER

Iddhipada

Iddhipāda (Pali; Skt. ṛddhipāda) is a compound term composed of "power" or "potency" (iddhi; ṛddhi) and "base," "basis" or "constituent" (pāda).[1] In Buddhism, the "power" referred to by this compound term is a group of spiritual powers. Thus, this compound term is usually translated along the lines of "base of power" or "base of spiritual power."[2] In the Buddhist pursuit of Enlightenment, the associated spiritual powers are secondary to the four "base" mental qualities that achieve such powers. These four base mental qualities are: concentration on intention; concentration on effort; concentration on consciousness; and, concentration on investigation. These four base mental qualities are used to develop wholesome mental states and rid oneself of unwholesome mental states.[3]


In traditional Buddhist literature, this set of four mental qualities is one of the seven sets of qualities lauded by the Buddha as conducive to Enlightenment (bodhipakkhiyādhammā).

...

Associated spiritual powers[edit]
In terms of the spiritual powers associated with the development of these bases, the "Before" Discourse (Pubba Sutta, SN 51.11) states:

"When the four bases of spiritual power have been developed and cultivated in this way, a bhikkhu wields the various kinds of spiritual power: having been one, he becomes many; having been many, he becomes one; he appears and vanishes; he goes unhindered through a wall, through a rampart, through a mountain as though through space; he dives in and out of the earth as though it were water; he walks on water without sinking as though it were earth; seated cross-legged, he travels in space like a bird; with his hands he touches and strokes the moon and sun so powerful and mighty; he exercises mastery with the body as far as the brahmā world."[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddhipada

Iddhipada?? Siddhis??


:anjali:
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by fckw » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:19 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:42 pm
Nope. We will all die.
Well, maybe I did not express myself very clearly, but I am not interested in the question of death or longevity. I was referring whether tummo practice leads to balancing of energies and removal of afflictions.

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florin
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by florin » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:49 pm

fckw wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:19 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:42 pm
Nope. We will all die.
Well, maybe I did not express myself very clearly, but I am not interested in the question of death or longevity. I was referring whether tummo practice leads to balancing of energies and removal of afflictions.
I believe so.
Even some more simpler exercises like a certain semdzin that works with the breathing claims to purify all illnesses.
It's big claim i know, but that's what it says.
Whether this means that it purifies-removes active illnesses or just prevents them from happening i wouldn't really know.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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