The regenerative potential of primordial state

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:57 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:42 pm
fckw wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:34 pm
Virgo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:04 pm
If a person rests in the natural state, their energies become harmonized, but it doesn't mean that all their chronic afflictions and diseases caused by conflict of the elements are removed. As Malcolm said, if it did, someone who was realized would be able to live in perpetuity.

Kevin
Would tummo practice achieve this, i.e. the balancing of energies and removal of afflictions?
Nope. We will all die.

Kevin
Verse 21. Freedom Is Difficult

Heedfulness is the Deathless path,
heedlessness, the path to death.
Those who are heedful do not die,
heedless are like the dead.


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Explanation: The path to the Deathless is the perpetual awareness of experience. The deathless does not imply a physical state where the body does not die. When an individual becomes totally aware of the process of experiencing, he is freed from the continuity of existence. Those who do not have that awareness are like the dead, even if they are physically alive.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_heed.htm

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Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25
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weitsicht
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by weitsicht » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:24 am

florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:13 pm
First, is there such a thing and second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on our mundane worldly situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.
Dzogchen and Mahamudra are the highest yanas, yes. Kuntuzangpo / Samantabhadra means always ever-been good. It is and ever has been there. Question is how to awaken to it.

My teacher uses Guru Yoga as a useful means to get acquainted with the primordial state. For further info please see "Being Guru Rinpoche" that explains quite well about why and how it is used.
But it is not a must. He encourages to see for ourselves. we all are adults and should see what works best for us. For one it is this deity, for another the whole universe of deities, herukas and dakinis, for the other the preliminaries, yet for another directly the blank dzogchen.

From a Mahamudra Teaching from Khamtrul Rinpoche I learnt that after completion of the first two yogas side effects of the practise are wellbeing, clarity (meaning clairvoyance), and non-thought.
Further side effects of the completion of the four yogas are that there is no more limitation to the experience towards the elements (fire, water, rock, etc) and that inner and outer realization mend.
These four yoga being
(1) Analysing the basis of shamata: the One-pointed Yoga Meditation
(2) Analyzing the basis of stillness and movement and identifying it through vipasyana: the yoga without elaboration
(3) The yoga of one taste: equal taste of all phenomena as the inseparability of mind and appearances
(4) The yoga of nonmeditation: the certainty that all phenomena are the natural, innate dharmakaya
For further reading please see "Mahamudra and related Instructions: Core Teaching of the Kagyu Schools" Text from Drukchen Pema Karpo

Hope that helped, W
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

florin
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by florin » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:48 am

weitsicht wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:24 am
florin wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:13 pm
First, is there such a thing and second if there is why is that whenever we ask for advice on our mundane worldly situation or on certain health issues we are advised, almost always, that we do the second best thing, tantric practice that is ?
My question points towards something specific not just the capacity for integration with worldly circumstances.
For example, if we have an ilness can we just by resting in our nature rebalance and regenrate our bodies back to the way they were, without the need to do complicated and lenghty specific tantric practices ?
My question stems from hearing a lot that the primordial state is the highest thing there is and how it has the potential for all the qualities to arise.
Dzogchen and Mahamudra are the highest yanas, yes. Kuntuzangpo / Samantabhadra means always ever-been good. It is and ever has been there. Question is how to awaken to it.

My teacher uses Guru Yoga as a useful means to get acquainted with the primordial state. For further info please see "Being Guru Rinpoche" that explains quite well about why and how it is used.
But it is not a must. He encourages to see for ourselves. we all are adults and should see what works best for us. For one it is this deity, for another the whole universe of deities, herukas and dakinis, for the other the preliminaries, yet for another directly the blank dzogchen.

From a Mahamudra Teaching from Khamtrul Rinpoche I learnt that after completion of the first two yogas side effects of the practise are wellbeing, clarity (meaning clairvoyance), and non-thought.
Further side effects of the completion of the four yogas are that there is no more limitation to the experience towards the elements (fire, water, rock, etc) and that inner and outer realization mend.
These four yoga being
(1) Analysing the basis of shamata: the One-pointed Yoga Meditation
(2) Analyzing the basis of stillness and movement and identifying it through vipasyana: the yoga without elaboration
(3) The yoga of one taste: equal taste of all phenomena as the inseparability of mind and appearances
(4) The yoga of nonmeditation: the certainty that all phenomena are the natural, innate dharmakaya
For further reading please see "Mahamudra and related Instructions: Core Teaching of the Kagyu Schools" Text from Drukchen Pema Karpo

Hope that helped, W
I appreciate your efforts but this is not quite what I wanted to clarify.
In the earlier interventions Malcolm has clarified the core issue somewhat.I came to the conclusion that in order to effect a particular change in our condition we need the presence of secondary conditions. It is a bit like if we want the presence of a particular reflection in the mirror we would need to have an object in front so that the potential of the mirror manifests as that as a visible reflection.
These secondary conditions need to be either tantric practices or working directly with the sound or qualities of the elements from our semi-frozen karmic vision.

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weitsicht
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by weitsicht » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:33 pm

florin wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:48 am
I appreciate your efforts but this is not quite what I wanted to clarify.
In the earlier interventions Malcolm has clarified the core issue somewhat.I came to the conclusion that in order to effect a particular change in our condition we need the presence of secondary conditions. It is a bit like if we want the presence of a particular reflection in the mirror we would need to have an object in front so that the potential of the mirror manifests as that as a visible reflection.
These secondary conditions need to be either tantric practices or working directly with the sound or qualities of the elements from our semi-frozen karmic vision.
Yes, everything is a display of mind. So also the visible reflection of a mirror (be this mirror tantra, a blessing, prostration, a breeze in my hair ...)
It's definitely not limited to the two.

I was more responding to the tantra than to the "second best thing"
When being a beggar your whole life, it is good to go for one day into a fancy looking and smelling lhankang and pretend being the king. It allows the beggar playing a role he else would never have in his life.
Hence you imagining being Guru Rinpoche (or else) so that you get a taste of the dharmakaya.
The tantra adopts to the brains functions. We are used to playing various roles in our lives. And with tantra, we simply add some more which are conducive to develop a view onto what cannot be expressed anyways.
But again, it works for some and not for others. There is no one recipe-catch all.

Mind and body are interconnected. If energy flows well, the body does well. This being said, I assume that still not everything can be eliminated through practise.

What would you say is the first best thing?
I don't quite get about "secondary conditions" and "semi-frozen karma". But don't mind. Happy that Malcolm could have helped (as often the case)

If anything else remains unclear, go ahead.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by climb-up » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:28 pm

Quay wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
...
I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.
I asked a particular Rinpoche with whom I was well acquainted about such things once. He basically said that although such things are possible and with some pretty common, it was best not to do so in front of people because they would get caught up in the display and miss the point of it all. Instead of a help it would be a great hindrance to others.
I am not doubting that many miraculous things are possible, and that folks that can do some miraculous things might choose not to call attention to them, but (just as an amusing aside) this is also a common excuse for not demonstrating powers by people who want to get credit for having them.

One example that always comes to mind (which I don't think was malicious at all, it was actually kind of cute) was in a great documentary where James Mallinson (sanskritist and yogi) goes around India paragliding and talking to different yogis (can't remember the name, it was very fun). At one point he's asking the temple priest about the flying machines, powered by mantra, that are described in the vedas. The priest described that it may have been common in the past, but not nowadays; but then he seemed to want to raise his status and imply that he could do it, but then he would be so popular that he'd never have time for his own sadhana.
It was cute because it seemed like a completely disconnected (like when you have a though in your head about how to act, and you try, but it comes through as artificial and forced), ...but it also a good point, and certainly would be true of anyone who does have a mantra powered flying machine.

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Malcolm
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm

climb-up wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:28 pm
Quay wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
...
I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.
I asked a particular Rinpoche with whom I was well acquainted about such things once. He basically said that although such things are possible and with some pretty common, it was best not to do so in front of people because they would get caught up in the display and miss the point of it all. Instead of a help it would be a great hindrance to others.
I am not doubting that many miraculous things are possible, and that folks that can do some miraculous things might choose not to call attention to them, but (just as an amusing aside) this is also a common excuse for not demonstrating powers by people who want to get credit for having them.
And in Mahāyāna it is explicitly ok to lie about having such powers if it causes people to have increased faith...so...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm
climb-up wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:28 pm
Quay wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:26 pm
I asked a particular Rinpoche with whom I was well acquainted about such things once. He basically said that although such things are possible and with some pretty common, it was best not to do so in front of people because they would get caught up in the display and miss the point of it all. Instead of a help it would be a great hindrance to others.
I am not doubting that many miraculous things are possible, and that folks that can do some miraculous things might choose not to call attention to them, but (just as an amusing aside) this is also a common excuse for not demonstrating powers by people who want to get credit for having them.
And in Mahāyāna it is explicitly ok to lie about having such powers if it causes people to have increased faith...so...
But.... when they find out they were deceived ...then..........
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cloudburst
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by cloudburst » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm

There are two levels of ye shes, pristine consciousness. The first level is the three pristine consciousnesses of the basis, essence, nature, and energy they are ultimate, unconditioned, etc. Then there are five relative pristine consciousnesses which are something like the rtsal of the basis, which when not recognized are reified as the five elements.
Could you please clarify as to whether, from your point of view, there are any differences between yeshe and rigpa, and if so what they are?

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:01 pm

cloudburst wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm

There are two levels of ye shes, pristine consciousness. The first level is the three pristine consciousnesses of the basis, essence, nature, and energy they are ultimate, unconditioned, etc. Then there are five relative pristine consciousnesses which are something like the rtsal of the basis, which when not recognized are reified as the five elements.
Could you please clarify as to whether, from your point of view, there are any differences between yeshe and rigpa, and if so what they are?
Ye shes is a quality of rig pa.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:02 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm
climb-up wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:28 pm

I am not doubting that many miraculous things are possible, and that folks that can do some miraculous things might choose not to call attention to them, but (just as an amusing aside) this is also a common excuse for not demonstrating powers by people who want to get credit for having them.
And in Mahāyāna it is explicitly ok to lie about having such powers if it causes people to have increased faith...so...
But.... when they find out they were deceived ...then..........

One hopes they have long since achieved freedom from suffering, and will forgive such white lies.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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cloudburst
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by cloudburst » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:01 pm
cloudburst wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:57 pm

Could you please clarify as to whether, from your point of view, there are any differences between yeshe and rigpa, and if so what they are?
Ye shes is a quality of rig pa.
Thank you.

Further, can one manifest yeshe without manifesting rigpa?
What is it a about rigpa that is not captured by the term 'yeshe'?

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Malcolm
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:34 pm

cloudburst wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:01 pm
cloudburst wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:57 pm

Could you please clarify as to whether, from your point of view, there are any differences between yeshe and rigpa, and if so what they are?
Ye shes is a quality of rig pa.
Thank you.

Further, can one manifest yeshe without manifesting rigpa?
What is it a about rigpa that is not captured by the term 'yeshe'?
In answer to question one, Rig pa is the means by which ye shes "manifests", though in Dzogchen it is a little strange to parse it that way.

Basically, the basis is considered to be ye shes, that is, the luminous, empty pure nature of the mind, which is not known to us at present.

Recognizing this is rigpa.

There are other ways the term is used which suggest that rig pa itself also also the nature of the mind which is being recognized. Thus, we need to pay attention to the context in which the term is being used in any given text.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:35 pm

climb-up wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:28 pm
Quay wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:26 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:00 pm
...
I personally have never witnessed such a miracle, and probably would not believe it even if I had.
I asked a particular Rinpoche with whom I was well acquainted about such things once. He basically said that although such things are possible and with some pretty common, it was best not to do so in front of people because they would get caught up in the display and miss the point of it all. Instead of a help it would be a great hindrance to others.
I am not doubting that many miraculous things are possible, and that folks that can do some miraculous things might choose not to call attention to them, but (just as an amusing aside) this is also a common excuse for not demonstrating powers by people who want to get credit for having them.

One example that always comes to mind (which I don't think was malicious at all, it was actually kind of cute) was in a great documentary where James Mallinson (sanskritist and yogi) goes around India paragliding and talking to different yogis (can't remember the name, it was very fun). At one point he's asking the temple priest about the flying machines, powered by mantra, that are described in the vedas. The priest described that it may have been common in the past, but not nowadays; but then he seemed to want to raise his status and imply that he could do it, but then he would be so popular that he'd never have time for his own sadhana.
It was cute because it seemed like a completely disconnected (like when you have a though in your head about how to act, and you try, but it comes through as artificial and forced), ...but it also a good point, and certainly would be true of anyone who does have a mantra powered flying machine.
I remember a report in a German newspaper that they managed to record the construction of a Tibetan temple using large stones weighing a few tons.

the monks used mantras and some sound instruments.

I can not find this link, but in a quick search on the net I found something similar to this news.

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cien ... grid08.htm
The following extracts are translations taken from the German article: 'We know from the priests of the far east that they were able to lift heavy boulders up high mountains with the help of groups of various sounds...the knowledge of the various vibrations in the audio range demonstrates to a scientist of physics that a vibrating and condensed sound field can nullify the power of gravitation. Swedish engineer Olaf Alexanderson wrote about this phenomenon in the publication, Implosion

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/44cosmic_w ... ion03.html

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

fckw
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by fckw » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:35 pm

The exact meaning of yeshe (Sanskrit: jnana) depends on the context. If appearing in the context of rigpa, it means its innate knowing quality. Rigpa is not just dead, it has the capacity to directly know or experience without being clouded over. As it's not contaminated by intellectualizing or thoughts it is often translated as wisdom or primordial wisdom.
Sometimes however you also encounter the term yeshe in relation to the ordinary mind, in this case it's probably best translated as conceptual or intellectual knowing.

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by pemachophel » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:40 pm

i've read what Loppon-la had to say about the regenerative power of the primordial state and his reasoning seems clear and coherent. that being said, when original Teacher first moved to the u.s, He was opening a pull-out bed and cut His finger very badly. after wrapping it in cloth, He immediately went into nonconceptual meditation. after spending some time in meditation, He removed the cloth. the bleeding had stopped and the wound looked like it had come together some. He said that nonconceptual meditation is so wonderful that it can help heal even traumatic injuries such as this. He then went on to tell about older yogies who grow in a third set of teeth due to their meditation.. so i'm not sure the answer to the OP is quite as simple as Loppon-la suggests.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by fckw » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:42 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:40 pm
i've read what Loppon-la had to say about the regenerative power of the primordial state and his reasoning seems clear and coherent. that being said, when original Teacher first moved to the u.s, He was opening a pull-out bed and cut His finger very badly. after wrapping it in cloth, He immediately went into nonconceptual meditation. after spending some time in meditation, He removed the cloth. the bleeding had stopped and the wound looked like it had come together some. He said that nonconceptual meditation is so wonderful that it can help heal even traumatic injuries such as this. He then went on to tell about older yogies who grow in a third set of teeth due to their meditation.. so i'm not sure the answer to the OP is quite as simple as Loppon-la suggests.
If you read about U.G. Krishnamurti, he also told stories about having a third set of teeth grown.

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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Motova » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:11 pm

Remote viewing + clinical self hypnosis + Dzogchen?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

climb-up
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by climb-up » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:02 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm


And in Mahāyāna it is explicitly ok to lie about having such powers if it causes people to have increased faith...so...
But.... when they find out they were deceived ...then..........

One hopes they have long since achieved freedom from suffering, and will forgive such white lies.
lol, well if so then that's fine!
In ESP research it has been shown that deceive people into thinking they are successful in certain experiments will, in fact, increase their real success in future experiments.

If it works, work it.
I'd be more concerned about people being turned off by fraud or ridiculous stories and writing off the dharma because of it, or even being deceived and then being told the trick before they have had enough benefits to forgive the betrayal of trust (and to continue trusting).

It seems, as with anything, the intentions can be pure, bad or mixed.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:34 pm

fckw wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:42 pm
stories about having a third set of teeth grown.
http://www.jyotish.ws/wisdom/kaya_kalpa ... ality.html
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: The regenerative potential of primordial state

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:02 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm


And in Mahāyāna it is explicitly ok to lie about having such powers if it causes people to have increased faith...so...
But.... when they find out they were deceived ...then..........

One hopes they have long since achieved freedom from suffering, and will forgive such white lies.

Yes....I'm not totally freed from suffering....but i believed all the stories i have read that later "others" have made me feel foolish to believe...but my faith was so strong.....and now i don't care what anyone says....the love is in my heart for all those stories still...and they did make a beliver out of me enough to continue my pursuit ....even though i feel I have failed utterly in practice...i feel sad for those that are overly skeptical and have to question every thing....i did the opposite...haha...i believed in everything i read, and still do...
Last edited by Kunga Lhadzom on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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