Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
I think it'd be best to ask your teacher. I'd assume they're aware of what's going on.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
I’d be more worried about their frivolity than anything else.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
Karma Dorje wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:27 pm We humans seem to be a lot more fascinated with criticizing the religious decisions of others than making our own real.
This criticism is really just a form of elevating ourselves and diminishing others. As we know that this is directly contrary to the Mahayana teachings, shouldn't we be more concerned with our own self-grasping than what other sentient beings choose?
So obviously the case that I find it extraordinary that it needs saying again and again and is ignored again and again.
Of course, the excuse is always the same " ' insert name of topic' is REALLY important and it is essential that we clash and state our subjective opinions because mine are important and the Dharma needs me to say it or else great harm will befall the planet".
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
The ironic thing is that these posts are also criticizing others, and in a way others' religious decisions. In this case, it is criticizing what you consider to be others' misplaced self-righteous religious indignation.Simon E. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:05 pmKarma Dorje wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:27 pm We humans seem to be a lot more fascinated with criticizing the religious decisions of others than making our own real.
This criticism is really just a form of elevating ourselves and diminishing others. As we know that this is directly contrary to the Mahayana teachings, shouldn't we be more concerned with our own self-grasping than what other sentient beings choose?
So obviously the case that I find it extraordinary that it needs saying again and again and is ignored again and again.
Of course, the excuse is always the same " ' insert name of topic' is REALLY important and it is essential that we clash and state our subjective opinions because mine are important and the Dharma needs me to say it or else great harm will befall the planet".
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
So you are saying that posting to DW is a 'religious' decision?
Well I guess in one sense everything is a religious decision.
I suppose only we know our own intentions when all is said and done.
It does, however, seem to me that the degree of righteous indignation (which is not a feature of THIS thread) is in inverse proportion to the degree that upeksha is a feature of any given post.
Well I guess in one sense everything is a religious decision.
I suppose only we know our own intentions when all is said and done.
It does, however, seem to me that the degree of righteous indignation (which is not a feature of THIS thread) is in inverse proportion to the degree that upeksha is a feature of any given post.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
Is there ever properly placed self-righteous indignation?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
What I mean is that I don't think the question of this thread is meant as a criticism of others. It seems a worthwhile question to answer, and no one who actually has a clear answer has replied so far, unless I missed it.
If what they are doing is a problem, then maybe it can be easily resolved.
If what they are doing is a problem, then maybe it can be easily resolved.
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
A pretty grey area in all honesty. I dont see how the OP's concern would be different if it was about Bon practices for example.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.
If there is no vajra relationship, then maybe there is no specific problem, but maybe there is one along the same lines but of much smaller importance. I would be interested in seeing some relevant quotes on the matter.
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
Not seeing one's fellow students with pure view is itself breaking samaya. Vajra masters don't need us to defend them or police our vajra brothers and sisters for samaya violations. If this is such a clear and present danger to the Dharma, why do we not hear the great masters of our traditions condemning the "heresies"?Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pmIt is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.
If there is no vajra relationship, then maybe there is no specific problem, but maybe there is one along the same lines but of much smaller importance. I would be interested in seeing some relevant quotes on the matter.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
The question is if it is a problem or not. I don't think anyone said it is a clear danger.Karma Dorje wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:42 pmNot seeing one's fellow students with pure view is itself breaking samaya. Vajra masters don't need us to defend them or police our vajra brothers and sisters for samaya violations. If this is such a clear and present danger to the Dharma, why do we not hear the great masters of our traditions condemning the "heresies"?Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pmIt is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.
If there is no vajra relationship, then maybe there is no specific problem, but maybe there is one along the same lines but of much smaller importance. I would be interested in seeing some relevant quotes on the matter.
Personally I have not been to too many dharma centers and haven't heard something like this before. I doubt it is common. Sounds more ridiculous than dangerous, but it does not sound good either.
As far as I know pointing out mistakes in a kind way is not breaking samaya.
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
You're jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence.Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.
If they're taking refuge in those dieties, sure, they'd be breaking mahayana vows at the very least. But nowhere in OP's posts does it state so, it says propriating which is a big difference. This is a matter for their guru to worry about.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
That should be clarified by the OP, but the question is still valid in general.Varis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:46 pmYou're jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence.Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.
If they're taking refuge in those dieties, sure, they'd be breaking mahayana vows at the very least. But nowhere in OP's posts does it state so, it says propriating which is a big difference. This is a matter for their guru to worry about.
Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=27627#p429909Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pmThat should be clarified by the OP, but the question is still valid in general.
Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
I meant that with the exception of offerings to spirits as part of practice, propitiating a deity in almost every case includes taking refuge in it in one way or another.Grigoris wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:45 pmviewtopic.php?f=40&t=27627#p429909Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pmThat should be clarified by the OP, but the question is still valid in general.
Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
The definition of propitiating is to gain the favor of someone or something. This is done through offerings.Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
You're confusing taking refuge in a deity as a path to liberation with propriation.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
You are confusing refuge with a path to liberation. Seeking someone's favor for protection, material gain, help with your problems, etc., is taking refuge in them.Varis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:36 pmThe definition of propitiating is to gain the favor of someone or something. This is done through offerings.Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
You're confusing taking refuge in a deity as a path to liberation with propriation.
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
So you take refuge in doctors, the police, etc. etc.?
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
So have you never accepted help or favors from any humans?Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:49 pmYou are confusing refuge with a path to liberation. Seeking someone's favor for protection, material gain, help with your problems, etc., is taking refuge in them.Varis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:36 pmThe definition of propitiating is to gain the favor of someone or something. This is done through offerings.Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
You're confusing taking refuge in a deity as a path to liberation with propriation.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings
In a way, yes. But the problem is with taking refuge in worldly deities, not with seeing a doctor if you are ill.