The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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conebeckham
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:59 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:21 am

Btw, in the end i need oral -not from a book-
instructions on Naropa's yogas, which contains the secondary practice of karmamudra, from a experienced lama/yogin, and the very best is taking Chakrasamvara initiation also, and of course integrate with the yidam. For recive this -specifically the karmamudra directions- i need to proove myself as a serious yogin. This is no toy, i mean it... i need some luck. That's of someone also want some info about.

And guys, the are quarrels here... kaliyuga sounds familiar?

Ideally you would need Cakrasamvara or Hevajra (or possibly another HYT Mother class) empowerments, completion of the requisite Yidam retreat, and instruction and retreat on the Completion Stage practices of Tummo, especially, and the other yogas, prior to being instructed in Karmamudra. You will need therefore not only luck, but also long-term time commitments and an ongoing relationship with a qualified guru.

Good luck!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:00 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:52 pm
In all honesty, the whole (Neo) Celtic movement is amusing to me, leaving aside the Buddha Dharma's association with this stuff. the 18th and 19th century explanations regarding "Celtic Migration" into the British Isles, from Germany/Austria/Iberian Peninsula are now largely discounted. One can talk of "Celtic Languages" and of a "Celtic" anthropological classifications, but all that is now called "Celtic" is really a fantasy of recent provenance.

Well, there's nothing wrong with fantasies of recent provenance, is there?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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conebeckham
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:03 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:00 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:52 pm
In all honesty, the whole (Neo) Celtic movement is amusing to me, leaving aside the Buddha Dharma's association with this stuff. the 18th and 19th century explanations regarding "Celtic Migration" into the British Isles, from Germany/Austria/Iberian Peninsula are now largely discounted. One can talk of "Celtic Languages" and of a "Celtic" anthropological classifications, but all that is now called "Celtic" is really a fantasy of recent provenance.

Well, there's nothing wrong with fantasies of recent provenance, is there?
I suppose that is the crux of this particular biscuit, isn't it?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Tiago Simões
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:22 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:03 pm
In all honesty, the whole (Neo) Celtic movement is amusing to me, leaving aside the Buddha Dharma's association with this stuff. the 18th and 19th century explanations regarding "Celtic Migration" into the British Isles, from Germany/Austria/Iberian Peninsula are now largely discounted. One can talk of "Celtic Languages" and of a "Celtic" anthropological classifications, but all that is now called "Celtic" is really a fantasy of recent provenance.
Pretty much all neo-pagan movements are like that, fantasies based on modern romanticized views of long dead traditions.

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conebeckham
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:22 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:03 pm
In all honesty, the whole (Neo) Celtic movement is amusing to me, leaving aside the Buddha Dharma's association with this stuff. the 18th and 19th century explanations regarding "Celtic Migration" into the British Isles, from Germany/Austria/Iberian Peninsula are now largely discounted. One can talk of "Celtic Languages" and of a "Celtic" anthropological classifications, but all that is now called "Celtic" is really a fantasy of recent provenance.
Pretty much all neo-pagan movements are like that, fantasies based on modern romanticized views of long dead traditions.
Yes, though I think the "Crowning of the Bard" in Cymru is a wonderful thing.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Sennin
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Sennin » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:34 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:59 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:21 am

Btw, in the end i need oral -not from a book-
instructions on Naropa's yogas, which contains the secondary practice of karmamudra, from a experienced lama/yogin, and the very best is taking Chakrasamvara initiation also, and of course integrate with the yidam. For recive this -specifically the karmamudra directions- i need to proove myself as a serious yogin. This is no toy, i mean it... i need some luck. That's of someone also want some info about.

And guys, the are quarrels here... kaliyuga sounds familiar?

Ideally you would need Cakrasamvara or Hevajra (or possibly another HYT Mother class) empowerments, completion of the requisite Yidam retreat, and instruction and retreat on the Completion Stage practices of Tummo, especially, and the other yogas, prior to being instructed in Karmamudra. You will need therefore not only luck, but also long-term time commitments and an ongoing relationship with a qualified guru.

Good luck!
So in that case if a dzogchen style practicioner wanted to practice karmamudra, perhaps they should go the khandro nyingtik route. I heard it's all there (karmamudra) but I don't really know.
:stirthepot: :popcorn:
Go no paradigm! ;)

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:39 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:22 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:03 pm
In all honesty, the whole (Neo) Celtic movement is amusing to me, leaving aside the Buddha Dharma's association with this stuff. the 18th and 19th century explanations regarding "Celtic Migration" into the British Isles, from Germany/Austria/Iberian Peninsula are now largely discounted. One can talk of "Celtic Languages" and of a "Celtic" anthropological classifications, but all that is now called "Celtic" is really a fantasy of recent provenance.
Pretty much all neo-pagan movements are like that, fantasies based on modern romanticized views of long dead traditions.
Yes, though I think the "Crowning of the Bard" in Cymru is a wonderful thing.
IN the UK we call them 'reconstructed' religions, which is maybe kinder than 'invented' but it does get ridiculous when we end up with Druid Shamans et al.
Just as Buddhists may get annoyed by the Celtic Buddhist nonsense, or find it funny, indigenous shamans from places like Mongolia are not at all amused by the hijacking of their practices by some twit from Glastonbury after a fast buck, who probably also peddles ayahuasca drug tourism.
Of course we have 'King Arthur', reincarnated, who parades around with his sword strapped to his bicycle and lay claim to Stonehenge etc. so the entertainment value probably outweight the fristrations. :)
Last edited by Mantrik on Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:40 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:22 pm
Pretty much all neo-pagan movements are like that, fantasies based on modern romanticized views of long dead traditions.
Yes, though I think the "Crowning of the Bard" in Cymru is a wonderful thing.
The bards are all cool, nothing wrong with arts.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:55 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:39 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Yes, though I think the "Crowning of the Bard" in Cymru is a wonderful thing.
IN the UK we call them 'reconstructed' religions, which is maybe kinder than 'invented' but it does get ridiculous when we end up with Druid Shamans et al.
Just as Buddhists may get annoyed by the Celtic Buddhist nonsense, or find it funny, indigenous shamans from places like Mongolia are not at all amused by the hijacking of their practices by some twit from Glastonbury after a fast buck, who probably also peddles ayahuasca drug tourism.
Of course we have 'KIng Arthur', reincarnated, who parades around with his sword strapped to his bicycle and lay claim to Stonehenge etc. so the entertainment value probably outweight the fristrations. :)
Aye!

BTW, Dwi i dysgau Cymraeg. Dych Chi'n siarad Cymraeg?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:00 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:39 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:22 pm


Pretty much all neo-pagan movements are like that, fantasies based on modern romanticized views of long dead traditions.
Yes, though I think the "Crowning of the Bard" in Cymru is a wonderful thing.
IN the UK we call them 'reconstructed' religions, which is maybe kinder than 'invented' but it does get ridiculous when we end up with Druid Shamans et al.
Just as Buddhists may get annoyed by the Celtic Buddhist nonsense, or find it funny, indigenous shamans from places like Mongolia are not at all amused by the hijacking of their practices by some twit from Glastonbury after a fast buck, who probably also peddles ayahuasca drug tourism.
Of course we have 'KIng Arthur', reincarnated, who parades around with his sword strapped to his bicycle and lay claim to Stonehenge etc. so the entertainment value probably outweight the fristrations. :)
:good:

To extend that line of thought sideways ... the whole Ritual Magic (Crowley and others) "tradition" is far more of a recent invention than of a reconstruction or continuation of a secret, ancient, but continuous tradition. The border between invented and reconstructed is very fuzzy ... and what about Castaneda and the "Teachings" of Don Juan?

:juggling:
Kim

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:05 am

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:55 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:39 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 pm
Yes, though I think the "Crowning of the Bard" in Cymru is a wonderful thing.
IN the UK we call them 'reconstructed' religions, which is maybe kinder than 'invented' but it does get ridiculous when we end up with Druid Shamans et al.
Just as Buddhists may get annoyed by the Celtic Buddhist nonsense, or find it funny, indigenous shamans from places like Mongolia are not at all amused by the hijacking of their practices by some twit from Glastonbury after a fast buck, who probably also peddles ayahuasca drug tourism.
Of course we have 'KIng Arthur', reincarnated, who parades around with his sword strapped to his bicycle and lay claim to Stonehenge etc. so the entertainment value probably outweight the fristrations. :)
Aye!

BTW, Dwi i dysgau Cymraeg. Dych Chi'n siarad Cymraeg?
I knew a little. I was a member of the Welsh Language Society at uni as we got £100 beer allowance and plotted to blow up Prince Charles. I am one quarter Welsh so after 10 pints I was fluent. :)
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 am

If the Dharma, which says that all things are impermanent, is also impermanent, does that mean that there are things etc that are, in fact, permanent and eternal?

Hmm... :thinking:

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:29 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 am
If the Dharma, which says that all things are impermanent, is also impermanent, does that mean that there are things etc that are, in fact, permanent and eternal?

Hmm... :thinking:

I think this thread might be one such thing.

Image
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by TharpaChodron » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:52 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:29 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 am
If the Dharma, which says that all things are impermanent, is also impermanent, does that mean that there are things etc that are, in fact, permanent and eternal?

Hmm... :thinking:

I think this thread might be one such thing.

Image
Right? :twothumbsup:

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PeterC » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:02 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:29 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 am
If the Dharma, which says that all things are impermanent, is also impermanent, does that mean that there are things etc that are, in fact, permanent and eternal?

Hmm... :thinking:

I think this thread might be one such thing.

Image
It certainly deserves to be. There can't be many better threads on DW, for substance and for entertainment value

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Karma Dorje » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:52 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:29 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 am
If the Dharma, which says that all things are impermanent, is also impermanent, does that mean that there are things etc that are, in fact, permanent and eternal?

Hmm... :thinking:

I think this thread might be one such thing.

Image
Along with the Great Vegetarian Debate and the 'To Ngondro or Not to Ngondro' brawl.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:51 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:52 pm
No, I never said the Buddha was eternal. What Maitreyanatha states is that "the refuge for going to the ultimate meaning is the Buddha alone because the Muni possesses the dharma body."
So now the dharmakaya is compounded too???
If you say the Dharma is a constant, then I can agree with that language. If you say it is permanent, I cannot agree with that language because the Dharma isn't permanent, even though it is a constant.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
It is obvious when you take into account everything the Buddha has said about his past lives in the Pali Sutta and his awakening, and do not merely select from one source sutta, as you have done.
If there is one thing I have realised it is that each Sutta has to be taken in it's specific context, it is when we try to generalise meanings across teachings (a mistake made by 99.9% of those that quote the Kalamas Sutta, for example) that we start to run into problems.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:08 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:52 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:29 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 am
If the Dharma, which says that all things are impermanent, is also impermanent, does that mean that there are things etc that are, in fact, permanent and eternal?

Hmm... :thinking:

I think this thread might be one such thing.

Image
Along with the Great Vegetarian Debate and the 'To Ngondro or Not to Ngondro' brawl.
Three is a good number but so is five. Let us not forget then about the perennial Great Perennialism Thread (which may or may not include the shentong-vs-rantong-vs-Dzogchen subcurrent -- smcj, where are you when the world needs you!) -- and the primordial could-God-and-the-Primordial-State-refer-to-the-same-siginified dilemma.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:51 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:52 pm
No, I never said the Buddha was eternal. What Maitreyanatha states is that "the refuge for going to the ultimate meaning is the Buddha alone because the Muni possesses the dharma body."
So now the dharmakaya is compounded too???
It's possible. There are a lot of debates about this, just as there are debates about what dharmakāya means.

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:51 am
It is obvious when you take into account everything the Buddha has said about his past lives in the Pali Sutta and his awakening, and do not merely select from one source sutta, as you have done.
If there is one thing I have realised it is that each Sutta has to be taken in it's specific context, it is when we try to generalise meanings across teachings (a mistake made by 99.9% of those that quote the Kalamas Sutta, for example) that we start to run into problems.
When it comes to Buddha's accounts of his awakening, I think it is vital to take them all into account, since together they paint a comprehensive picture.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:19 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:59 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:21 am

Btw, in the end i need oral -not from a book-
instructions on Naropa's yogas, which contains the secondary practice of karmamudra, from a experienced lama/yogin, and the very best is taking Chakrasamvara initiation also, and of course integrate with the yidam. For recive this -specifically the karmamudra directions- i need to proove myself as a serious yogin. This is no toy, i mean it... i need some luck. That's of someone also want some info about.

And guys, the are quarrels here... kaliyuga sounds familiar?
Ideally you would need Cakrasamvara or Hevajra (or possibly another HYT Mother class) empowerments, completion of the requisite Yidam retreat, and instruction and retreat on the Completion Stage practices of Tummo, especially, and the other yogas, prior to being instructed in Karmamudra. You will need therefore not only luck, but also long-term time commitments and an ongoing relationship with a qualified guru.

Good luck!
I will try. Even if i don't reach such teachings, at simple view the path it's a worth.
KrisW wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:34 pm
So in that case if a dzogchen style practicioner wanted to practice karmamudra, perhaps they should go the khandro nyingtik route. I heard it's all there (karmamudra) but I don't really know.
:stirthepot: :popcorn:
I will check, and if it's possible for me.
--
Now i'm not changing the thread topic 🙏

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