Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

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Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:09 pm

KrisW wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:This I can understand. So since the mandala is different one would need to initiated into the specific mandala. Okay.

As for the practice and mantra, it makes sense that one would need a lung.

But I am talking more from the angle of the essential nature of the Yidam.
The Nyingma view is that if you receive a Shitro empowerments, then all you really need for any deity is the lung and khrid. Sakya, Kagyu (there is a lot a variation depending on Nyingma influenced), and Gelug will generally maintain that to practice two different lineage of same deity, you need two empowerments.
Is the tonwang of the namcho shitro sufficient, or are you mentioning a specific shitro empowerment?
In ChNN's system Dzogchen transmission is all you need, and then the lung and khrid for a given deity.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lhasa
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Lhasa » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:56 pm

Does khrid need to be live in person, or if the Lama says read this book, it's good enough?

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Josef
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Josef » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:50 am

Lhasa wrote:Does khrid need to be live in person, or if the Lama says read this book, it's good enough?
If the lama is instructing you to gain clarification from a textual source the lama probably considers that sufficient.
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Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:04 am

Lhasa wrote:Does khrid need to be live in person, or if the Lama says read this book, it's good enough?

If the guru says read this book it is enough.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pema tsultrim
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by pema tsultrim » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:35 am

When and where did Bhakha Tulku give the Guhyagarbha wang? I never heard about it. As he is one of my primary teachers, I would have loved to receive it from him.

P.T.

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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:29 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pm
Same with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical
How was this done in india before there was kagyu and sakya?

Is this because the transmission or the sadhana come to the lineage masters directly from from the deity?

Geoffrey Samuel in his book Introducing Tibetan Buddhism (page 71) puts it this way:
Since Tantric practice is always performed within a specific lineage of transmission that authorizes the practice.....the practicioner is niot invoking Avalokiteśvara in general but a specific from of Avalokiteśvara with whom he or she has established a bond through the ritual empowerment
Is this why one who receives empowerment form kagyu shouldn't practice the sakya sadhana?
It seems very odd since both came from naropa....?

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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 am

also what is 'khrid'? the instructions?

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heart
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by heart » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:08 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 am
also what is 'khrid'? the instructions?
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/khrid

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:22 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:29 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pm
Same with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical
How was this done in india before there was kagyu and sakya?

Is this because the transmission or the sadhana come to the lineage masters directly from from the deity?
There are important differences in these two lineages concerning how the empowerments are given, instructions, and so on.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:23 pm

pema tsultrim wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:35 am
When and where did Bhakha Tulku give the Guhyagarbha wang? I never heard about it. As he is one of my primary teachers, I would have loved to receive it from him.

P.T.
Bakha Tullku gave the Guhyagarbha Wang at his house in Berkely, CA in 1992.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Kilaya.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Kilaya. » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:22 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:29 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 pm
Same with Vajrayogini. Receiving Vajrayogini in Kagyu, does not qualify you to practice Naro Khachö in Sakya, even though the mantra is identical
How was this done in india before there was kagyu and sakya?

Is this because the transmission or the sadhana come to the lineage masters directly from from the deity?
There are important differences in these two lineages concerning how the empowerments are given, instructions, and so on.
Can you elaborate on the main differences, please?
Look at those charlatans, madly engaged
in fervent argument.
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Re: Empowerment question Krodha Kali / Dudjom Tersar

Post by Yeti » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:24 am

heart wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
I never heard anyone, except you, say this. Do you have a source for this?

/magnus

Well, Ayang Rinpoche mentioned this in a retreat. Bakha Tulku reaffirmed it when he gave us the Guhyagarbha empowerment, since I asked him about it.
Maybe I don't understand but are you saying that if you have the Shitro empowerment you don't need a Khrodha Kali empowerment to practice Khrodha Kali, for example in the Dudjom tradition?

/magnus
In my own case, one of my teachers was giving teachings on the Shitro/Bardo from Karma Lingpa. I asked if the Shitro from the Nyingma Kahma qualified me for those teachings. He said no, because the NK Shitro only had Maha and Anu yoga, where as the Karma Lingpa Shitro had an Ati section, which were the source of the teachings he was giving. Just saying,...
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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