Ngakpas

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:49 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 pm
There is no real problem with encouraging people to recite things like the six syllable mantra or Arapacana since they are from sūtra and so do not require any special transmission.

However, it is more useful for such beginners to recite the Heart Sūtra.
Indeed, but practicing a (any) mantra like your life depends on it is exactly what is needed in the case of every mantra. You are overlooking the pedagogical aspect of my post in order to focus on procedural issues (irrelevancies in the case of tenma, who cannot focus on one thing for more than a millisecond). ;)

Now instead of focusing on the mantra mentioned, they will start to ask a string of useless questions regarding the Heart Sutra mantra and any chance of them applying themselves properly to a practice will vanish up their cavity once again.
Well, the real issue here is not whether to recite mantras, or not, but whether they have a teacher or not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:49 pm
Well, the real issue here is not whether to recite mantras, or not, but whether they have a teacher or not.
Indeed it is.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Mantrik » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm

So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Josef
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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heart
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by heart » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm

Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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heart
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by heart » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm


Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:13 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm


So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus

Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Ngakpas

Post by pemachophel » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:33 pm

"When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them."

Yes, but wouldn't you also say depending on whether the Teacher thinks the student(s) asking are ready for and capable of holding those teachings. One doesn't give a loaded gun to a toddler. In some cases it may be compassionate not to give certain, particular teachings to certain sentient beings.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:40 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:33 pm
"When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them."

Yes, but wouldn't you also say depending on whether the Teacher thinks the student(s) asking are ready for and capable of holding those teachings. One doesn't give a loaded gun to a toddler. In some cases it may be compassionate not to give certain, particular teachings to certain sentient beings.

A teacher has to judge what a student is ready to receive. For this reason we default to the gradual path.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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heart
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by heart » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:13 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm


It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus

Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.
If an empowerment was just a ritual performed well, what would be the point of receiving it?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Josef
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:39 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
That's not what I said. I put quite a few qualifiers in there.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Josef
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:45 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm


So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus
That's actually a big part of what I meant.
If one is a bodhisattva with the capacity to give certain teachings and transmissions and the circumstances are appropriate, they are given.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Mantrik
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Contact:

Re: Ngakpas

Post by Mantrik » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 am

Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
I'd go along with that if you received the sadhana and description of the signs etc from a qualified teacher, but not if you just found a sadhana and explanation on, say, Scribd, and persuaded yourself you were qualified to pass it on.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Josef
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Josef » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:01 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 am
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
I'd go along with that if you received the sadhana and description of the signs etc from a qualified teacher, but not if you just found a sadhana and explanation on, say, Scribd, and persuaded yourself you were qualified to pass it on.
Of course.
Proper transmission is absolutely essential.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:28 am

what makes it a 'lung' ?
If one just goes to a service and hears the mantras, is it a lung?

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Josef
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Re: Ngakpas

Post by Josef » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:15 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:28 am
what makes it a 'lung' ?
If one just goes to a service and hears the mantras, is it a lung?
Intention on both sides makes it a lung. Just hearing a mantra doesn’t cut it.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27773
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Ngakpas

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:38 am

heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:13 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm


I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus

Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.
If an empowerment was just a ritual performed well, what would be the point of receiving it?

/magnus

It gives one permission to practice a specific path, that is the point of it. Basically, empowerments are a means of awakening. But if one does not awaken during the empowerment, than one has the sadhana method.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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