Well, the real issue here is not whether to recite mantras, or not, but whether they have a teacher or not.Grigoris wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:21 pmIndeed, but practicing a (any) mantra like your life depends on it is exactly what is needed in the case of every mantra. You are overlooking the pedagogical aspect of my post in order to focus on procedural issues (irrelevancies in the case of tenma, who cannot focus on one thing for more than a millisecond).
Now instead of focusing on the mantra mentioned, they will start to ask a string of useless questions regarding the Heart Sutra mantra and any chance of them applying themselves properly to a practice will vanish up their cavity once again.
Ngakpas
Re: Ngakpas
Re: Ngakpas
Indeed it is.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Ngakpas
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Ngakpas
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.Mantrik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Ngakpas
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?Josef wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pmMany sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.Mantrik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Ngakpas
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.heart wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pmSo, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?Josef wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pmMany sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.Mantrik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
/magnus
Re: Ngakpas
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pmIt depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.heart wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pmSo, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?Josef wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
/magnus
I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Ngakpas
heart wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?
/magnus
Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.
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Re: Ngakpas
"When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them."
Yes, but wouldn't you also say depending on whether the Teacher thinks the student(s) asking are ready for and capable of holding those teachings. One doesn't give a loaded gun to a toddler. In some cases it may be compassionate not to give certain, particular teachings to certain sentient beings.
Yes, but wouldn't you also say depending on whether the Teacher thinks the student(s) asking are ready for and capable of holding those teachings. One doesn't give a loaded gun to a toddler. In some cases it may be compassionate not to give certain, particular teachings to certain sentient beings.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Re: Ngakpas
pemachophel wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:33 pm "When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them."
Yes, but wouldn't you also say depending on whether the Teacher thinks the student(s) asking are ready for and capable of holding those teachings. One doesn't give a loaded gun to a toddler. In some cases it may be compassionate not to give certain, particular teachings to certain sentient beings.
A teacher has to judge what a student is ready to receive. For this reason we default to the gradual path.
Re: Ngakpas
If an empowerment was just a ritual performed well, what would be the point of receiving it?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:13 pm
Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Ngakpas
That's not what I said. I put quite a few qualifiers in there.heart wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pmSo, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?Josef wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pmMany sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.Mantrik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
/magnus
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Ngakpas
That's actually a big part of what I meant.heart wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?
/magnus
If one is a bodhisattva with the capacity to give certain teachings and transmissions and the circumstances are appropriate, they are given.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Ngakpas
I'd go along with that if you received the sadhana and description of the signs etc from a qualified teacher, but not if you just found a sadhana and explanation on, say, Scribd, and persuaded yourself you were qualified to pass it on.Josef wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pmMany sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.Mantrik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Ngakpas
Of course.Mantrik wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 amI'd go along with that if you received the sadhana and description of the signs etc from a qualified teacher, but not if you just found a sadhana and explanation on, say, Scribd, and persuaded yourself you were qualified to pass it on.Josef wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pmMany sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.Mantrik wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.
I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.
And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
Proper transmission is absolutely essential.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Ngakpas
what makes it a 'lung' ?
If one just goes to a service and hears the mantras, is it a lung?
If one just goes to a service and hears the mantras, is it a lung?
Re: Ngakpas
Intention on both sides makes it a lung. Just hearing a mantra doesn’t cut it.Fortyeightvows wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:28 am what makes it a 'lung' ?
If one just goes to a service and hears the mantras, is it a lung?
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Ngakpas
heart wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:41 pmIf an empowerment was just a ritual performed well, what would be the point of receiving it?
/magnus
It gives one permission to practice a specific path, that is the point of it. Basically, empowerments are a means of awakening. But if one does not awaken during the empowerment, than one has the sadhana method.