Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

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Supramundane
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Supramundane » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:58 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:52 am
please tell me then what is the difference between an enlightened being and yourself...
Since no being ever entered Nirvana, there are no enlightened or unenlightened beings, therefore you know and are the difference you are asking about by the very inquiry.

The notion of "same" designates the differences, talking about sameness and differences are merely conceptions the conditional mind adds to perceptions, when released of (intellectual) delusion, it is known as "Nirvana"
omg bro i think you are playing chess and i am playing checkers. i have no idea what you mean, it is way above my head, but very stimulating.

what do you mean, no being ever entered Nirvana?

are you saying that since there is no Self there is no I or you, in that sense, no one has entered Nirvana? please enlighten me, so to speak hehe

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:04 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:19 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:35 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:25 pm
Yes, that's what he's referring to in the 2nd quote above.
So how is a BodhiSATTVA not a being then? I mean, at a relative level, since at the ultimate level there are no beings.
I don't see "no beings" as being applicable to the relative level since it's an ultimate level statement to begin with. :smile:
That doesn't answer my question.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:48 am

Supramundane wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:56 am
but the Boddhisatva does... right?
Let me try a metaphor: All beings will die. They all have "death" or "dying" as an inherent characteristic. That doesn't mean they are dead though, does it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by seeker242 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:53 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:04 am
seeker242 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:19 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:35 pm
So how is a BodhiSATTVA not a being then? I mean, at a relative level, since at the ultimate level there are no beings.
I don't see "no beings" as being applicable to the relative level since it's an ultimate level statement to begin with. :smile:
That doesn't answer my question.
Because the question is irrelevant because the relative level is irrelevant. It's like asking a question about oranges when you're talking about apples. The topic is apples, not oranges.
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:48 am
Supramundane wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:56 am
but the Boddhisatva does... right?
Let me try a metaphor: All beings will die. They all have "death" as an inherent characteristic. That doesn't mean they are dead though, does it?
Nope. But ultimately, just like it says in the Heart Sutra "There is no death".
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Vasana » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:59 am

Supramundane wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:53 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:04 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:52 am
please tell me then what is the difference between an enlightened being and yourself...
:rolling: I don't think the forum's platform could support a post which is that long...
you are very modest and i appreciate your sense of humor, G:)

i was under the impression that all beings possessed a luminous mind and they were enlightened, but simply didn't realize it. it is not a matter of changing ourselves but simply a matter of pushing away the clouds to reveal the sunlight of our Buddhahood.

therefore, in this light, a Boddhisatva would be one who realized that all beings were enlightened already... there is no need in that sense to liberate anyone.

But i am not going to try to quote sutra to oppose senior members such as Vasana and yourself.

i stand corrected. i will read the over the quotes you gave me and think this one over again.
It's not about opposing anyone. Just about helping us all understand more clearly through dialouge :)

Beings do possess a luminous mind, but the perfection of wisdom that discerns the empty nature of that luminosity is obscured and so there follows the imputation that self, other and objects are truly existent and the cycle of dependent origination continues. It's the occurence and subsequently the non-occurence of these obscurations that mean we can still conventionaly talk about the differences between beings, arhats, Bodhisattvas and Buddhas. While at the same time, as posted earlier, beings are still empty of beings, Bodhisattvas are still empty of Bodhisattvas and the omniscience of a Buddha is empty of the omniscience of a Buddha.

Another way of saying it is in terms of base, path and fruit. Although beings have the same base Kayas as Buddhas this does not mean beings have realized the fruition kayas of the Buddhas, hence the demonstration of the path by Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. In this sense, it's incorrect to say that beings are already enlightened and that Bodhisattvas see no need to do anything.

30:41 Great bodhisattva beings, abiding in this emptiness of inherent existence, practice the understanding of the aspects of the path in order to liberate from all notions those sentient beings who have the notion that they are sentient beings

Although this means that no beings are ultimately liberated it does not mean that these illusion-like Bodhisattvas abandon the illusion-like beings who have tangled themselves in a web of conceptions that result in the experiences of suffering. To illustrate this point, the happiness and suffering experienced in a dream is often used as an example. The happiness and suffering you experience in a dream on the basis of dream objects can't be said to be categorically real since they're projections of the dreamer but nor can you say that the happiness or sadness is categorically unreal since beings are completely convinced of the reality of that experience. In this way, dream-like Bodhisattvas are just waking up dream-like beings from their fantasies and nightmares in the same way a parent might comfort a sleeping child having a bad dream.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:15 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:53 am
Because the question is irrelevant because the relative level is irrelevant. It's like asking a question about oranges when you're talking about apples. The topic is apples, not oranges.
The question is relevant, you are trying to dodge the question (and are failing to do so) because you are incapable of answering it. It is not a problem if you cannot answer, I don't expect you to be able to justify a view that cannot really be supported.

It is funny though (generally speaking) how people think that relative and ultimate truth are somehow independent of each other.
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:48 am
Nope. But ultimately, just like it says in the Heart Sutra "There is no death".
Again: one cannot ignore the relative in preference to the ultimate. The Buddha taught karma AND sunayta.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by seeker242 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:45 am

one cannot ignore the relative in preference to the ultimate.
And it's equally wrong to ignore the ultimate in preference of the relative. The Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra are not wrong...
The Buddha taught karma AND sunayta.
That's right, which is why the Heart Sutra is not wrong...
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:14 pm

And it's equally wrong to ignore the ultimate in preference of the relative.
Indeed.
The Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra are not wrong...
Ultimately they are not right either. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Supramundane » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 am

G, V, if i can recap to confirm my understanding.

I suggested in a devil's advocate sort of way that perhaps the Boddhisatva is the one who has reached enlightenment because he understands that every being is already enlightened, i.e. concept of Luminous Mind. after all, there are some that may say that as a result of interconnectedness, individual enlightenment is an oxymoron, meaning that it is an 'all or nothing' proposition. this led me to suggest that perhaps we are all enlightened and it is the Boddhisatva who has simply understood this basic fact. thus, there is no need to liberate others since everyone is intrinsically already free, i.e. possessing Buddhanature and a Luminous Mind.

However, you corrected me saying that although it is a capacity, it is not yet a reality. G gave a very good analogy, one that will stay with me, that although we possess the nature of mortality, dying, this does not mean that we are all dead. there is ultimate truth and conventional truth. ultimately we are all mortal but on a conventional level, we still are alive. both ultimate truth and conventional truth hold true, even though they are not in synch at times. ultimately there is sunyata but conventionally there is karma. Buddhanature and Luminous Mind in fact are not qualities with an essence but the end result, a potential, that every being possesses when he/she wipes away the impurities.

have i summarized our discussion correctly?

and one further question; is it accurate to say that on an ultimate level, as a result of interconnectedness and not-self, there can be no individual enlightenment?

i note in the Diamond Sutra:

. all living beings will eventually be led by me to the final Nirvana, the final ending of the cycle of birth and death. And when this unfathomable, infinite number of living beings have all been liberated, in truth not even a single being has actually been liberated.

"Why Subhuti? Because if a bodhisattva still clings to the illusions of form or phenomena such as an ego, a personality, a self, a separate person, or a universal self existing eternally, then that person is not a bodhisattva."


So basically we are creating divisions in our minds. The worlds we create are samsara and when we travel through them, this is birth. when they reveal their impermanence by eroding or disappearing, this is death. The end of this process is Nirvana...

am i on the right track?
thx for your patience G, V
c

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by joy&peace » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:43 pm

Diamond Sutra: Chapter 12
“Furthermore, Subhuti, if any person in any place were to teach even four lines of this Sutra, the place where they taught it would become sacred ground and would be revered by all kinds of beings. How much more sacred would the place become if that person then studied and observed the whole Sutra! Subhuti, you should know that any person who does that would surely attain something rare and profound. Wherever this Sutra is honored and revered there is a sacred site enshrining the presence of the Buddha or one of the Buddha’s most venerable disciples.”

Diamond Sutra: Chapter 32
Buddha continued:

“Subhuti, if anyone gave to the Buddha an immeasurable quantity of the seven treasures sufficient to fill the whole universe; and if another person, whether a man or woman, in seeking to attain complete Enlightenment were to earnestly and faithfully observe and study even a single section of this Sutra and explain it to others, the accumulated blessing and merit of that latter person would be far greater.”

“Subhuti, how can one explain this Sutra to others without holding in mind any arbitrary conception of forms or phenomena or spiritual truths? It can only be done, Subhuti, by keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances.”

“So I say to you –
This is how to contemplate our conditioned existence in this fleeting world:”

“Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream;
Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream.”

“So is all conditioned existence to be seen.”

Thus spoke Buddha.

:buddha2:

Supra your verse came to mind as well.

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Cianan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:57 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 am
G, V, if i can recap to confirm my understanding.

I suggested in a devil's advocate sort of way that perhaps the Boddhisatva is the one who has reached enlightenment because he understands that every being is already enlightened, i.e. concept of Luminous Mind. after all, there are some that may say that as a result of interconnectedness, individual enlightenment is an oxymoron, meaning that it is an 'all or nothing' proposition. this led me to suggest that perhaps we are all enlightened and it is the Boddhisatva who has simply understood this basic fact. thus, there is no need to liberate others since everyone is intrinsically already free, i.e. possessing Buddhanature and a Luminous Mind.

However, you corrected me saying that although it is a capacity, it is not yet a reality. G gave a very good analogy, one that will stay with me, that although we possess the nature of mortality, dying, this does not mean that we are all dead. there is ultimate truth and conventional truth. ultimately we are all mortal but on a conventional level, we still are alive. both ultimate truth and conventional truth hold true, even though they are not in synch at times. ultimately there is sunyata but conventionally there is karma. Buddhanature and Luminous Mind in fact are not qualities with an essence but the end result, a potential, that every being possesses when he/she wipes away the impurities.

have i summarized our discussion correctly?

and one further question; is it accurate to say that on an ultimate level, as a result of interconnectedness and not-self, there can be no individual enlightenment?

i note in the Diamond Sutra:

. all living beings will eventually be led by me to the final Nirvana, the final ending of the cycle of birth and death. And when this unfathomable, infinite number of living beings have all been liberated, in truth not even a single being has actually been liberated.

"Why Subhuti? Because if a bodhisattva still clings to the illusions of form or phenomena such as an ego, a personality, a self, a separate person, or a universal self existing eternally, then that person is not a bodhisattva."


So basically we are creating divisions in our minds. The worlds we create are samsara and when we travel through them, this is birth. when they reveal their impermanence by eroding or disappearing, this is death. The end of this process is Nirvana...

am i on the right track?
thx for your patience G, V
c
Conventionally, sentient beings accomplish their individual awakening through the buddhadharma expounded in great compassion, but this can be likened to space being liberated into space. Ultimately, there are neither sentient beings nor buddhas; there is neither samsara nor nirvana; there is neither ignorance nor gnosis. These relative appearances are natural adornments of the non-apprehensible wakefulness of the dharmadhātu and equal in utter purity. The awakening of what is relatively apprehended as a buddha is this realization.
Daśa­sāhasrikā­prajñā­pāramitā wrote:“Also, Su­bhūti, you asked who will attain emancipation by means of this vehicle. In this regard, Su­bhūti, no one will attain emancipation by means of this vehicle. If you ask why‌, Su­bhūti, it is because all those things associated with this vehicle, and with those who would attain emancipation, and that in which emancipation is attained, are non-existent and they are non-apprehensible. Since all things are accordingly non-existent and non-apprehensible, who could attain emancipation by means of anything? In what could emancipation possibly be attained? If you ask why‌, Su­bhūti, it is because the self and other‌ [posited subjects], up to and including the knower and the viewer, are non-apprehensible. This being the case, the ‘self’ is never apprehensible. Similarly, [other‌ posited subjects], from sentient beings and living creatures to knowers and viewers, are all non-apprehensible.
 “Similarly, the expanse of reality is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity. The real nature is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity. The finality of existence is non-apprehensible, [owing to its utter purity]. The inconceivable expanse is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity. The psycho-physical aggregates and sensory elements are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. The sensory elements and sense fields are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Similarly, the transcendent perfection of generosity is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity. Similarly, the transcendent perfection of ethical discipline, the transcendent perfection of tolerance, the transcendent perfection of perseverance, the transcendent perfection of meditative concentration, and the transcendent perfection of wisdom are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Similarly, the emptiness of internal phenomena is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity, and in the same vein, the other‌ aspects of emptiness, up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities, are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity.
 “Similarly, the applications of mindfulness are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity, and in the same vein, [the other‌ causal attributes], up to and including the noble eightfold path, are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Those who have entered the stream are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Similarly, those who are tied to one more rebirth, those who are no longer subject to rebirth, arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and those who have become tathāgatas, arhats, genuinely perfect buddhas are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Similarly, the fruit of having entered the stream is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity. Similarly, the fruit of being tied to one more rebirth, the fruit of being no longer subject to rebirth, arhatship, individual enlightenment, and unsurpassed, genuinely perfect enlightenment are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Omniscience is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity. Similarly, non-arising, non-cessation, non-affliction, non-purification and non-conditioning are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. The limit of the past is non-apprehensible, owing to its utter purity. Similarly, the limit of the future and the present are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Similarly, motion, non-motion, resting, and arising are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. Similarly, decrease and increase are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity.”
 “What, you may ask, is it that is non-apprehensible, on account of which all things are not apprehended? Things are not apprehended because the expanse of reality is non-apprehensible. If you ask why‌, Su­bhūti, it is because the expanse of reality, owing to its utter purity, has not been, is not and will not be apprehended by anyone. In the same vein, things are not apprehended because the real nature is non-apprehensible, because the finality of existence is non-apprehensible, because emptiness is non-apprehensible, because the transcendent perfection of wisdom is non-apprehensible, because the emptiness of internal phenomena is non-apprehensible, and because [the other‌ aspects of emptiness] up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities, are non-apprehensible. Similarly, things are not apprehended because the applications of mindfulness are non-apprehensible. Things are not apprehended because [the other‌ causal and fruitional attributes], up to and including the eighteen distinct qualities of the buddhas are non-apprehensible. Similarly, things are not apprehended because those who have entered the stream are non-apprehensible, and in the same vein, things are not apprehended because [other‌ realized beings] up to and including genuinely perfect buddhas, are non-apprehensible. Similarly, things are not apprehended because the fruit of having entered the stream is non-apprehensible. In the same vein, things are not apprehended because [the other‌ attainments], up to and including unsurpassed, genuinely perfect enlightenment, are non-apprehensible.
 “Similarly, things are not apprehended because non-arising is non-apprehensible. Things are also not apprehended because other‌ unconditioned phenomena, up to and including non-conditioning, are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity. If you ask why‌, Su­bhūti, it is the case that things are not apprehended because, owing to its utter purity, non-conditioning [and so forth] is non-apprehensible.
 “Similarly, things are not apprehended because the first level [of realization] is non-apprehensible. Things are not apprehended because [the other‌ levels of realization], up to and including the tenth level, are non-apprehensible, owing to their utter purity.
 “In this regard, if you ask what are the ten levels, they comprise (1) the level of bright insight, (2) the level of buddha nature, (3) the level of eightfold acceptance, (4) the level of insight, (5) the level of attenuated refinement, (6) the level of dispassion, (7) the level of [an arhat’s] spiritual achievement, (8) the level of the pratyekabuddhas, (9) the level of the bodhisattvas, and (10) the actual level of the genuinely perfect buddhas.
 “In the emptiness of internal phenomena, the first level is non-apprehensible, and similarly, the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth levels are non-apprehensible. In the same vein, in the other‌ aspects of emptiness, up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities, due to their utter purity, the first level is non-apprehensible, as are [the other‌ levels], up to and including the tenth level, due to their utter purity. If you ask why‌, Su­bhūti, it is because the first level has not been, is not, and will not be apprehended by anyone, and [the other‌ levels], up to and including the tenth level, owing to their utter purity, have not been, are not, and will not be apprehended by anyone.
 “Similarly, in the emptiness of internal phenomena, the maturation of sentient beings is non-apprehensible due to its utter purity, and [in to the other‌ aspects of emptiness], up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities, the maturation of sentient beings is non-apprehensible. Similarly, in the emptiness of internal phenomena, the refinement of the buddhafields is non-apprehensible due to its utter purity, and in the other‌ aspects of emptiness, up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities, the refinement of the buddhafields is non-apprehensible. Similarly, in the emptiness of internal phenomena, the five eyes are non-apprehensible due to their utter purity, and in the other‌ aspects of emptiness, up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities, the five eyes are non-apprehensible.
 “So it is, Su­bhūti, that when great bodhisattva beings practice the transcendent perfection of wisdom in that manner, owing to the non-apprehension of all things, they will attain emancipation in omniscience by means of the Great Vehicle.”
“All is an adornment for clarifying wisdom,
And is purified simply by realizing this.”
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:06 pm

Cianan wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:57 pm
Conventionally, sentient beings accomplish their individual awakening through the buddhadharma expounded in great compassion, but this can be likened to space being liberated into space. Ultimately, there are neither sentient beings nor buddhas; there is neither samsara nor nirvana; there is neither ignorance nor gnosis. These relative appearances are natural adornments of the non-apprehensible wakefulness of the dharmadhātu and equal in utter purity. The awakening of what is relatively apprehended as a buddha is this realization.
Well, actually, the "neither/nor" thing is considered the fourth extreme refuted by Nagarjuna. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:09 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 am
G, V, if i can recap to confirm my understanding.

I suggested in a devil's advocate sort of way that perhaps the Boddhisatva is the one who has reached enlightenment because he understands that every being is already enlightened, i.e. concept of Luminous Mind. after all, there are some that may say that as a result of interconnectedness, individual enlightenment is an oxymoron, meaning that it is an 'all or nothing' proposition. this led me to suggest that perhaps we are all enlightened and it is the Boddhisatva who has simply understood this basic fact. thus, there is no need to liberate others since everyone is intrinsically already free, i.e. possessing Buddhanature and a Luminous Mind.

However, you corrected me saying that although it is a capacity, it is not yet a reality. G gave a very good analogy, one that will stay with me, that although we possess the nature of mortality, dying, this does not mean that we are all dead. there is ultimate truth and conventional truth. ultimately we are all mortal but on a conventional level, we still are alive. both ultimate truth and conventional truth hold true, even though they are not in synch at times. ultimately there is sunyata but conventionally there is karma. Buddhanature and Luminous Mind in fact are not qualities with an essence but the end result, a potential, that every being possesses when he/she wipes away the impurities.

have i summarized our discussion correctly?
Just to be pedantic: they are not the end result, mainly because they have always been there from the beginning. They are not a result of removing impurity. But again: I am just being pedantic. :smile: I understand what you are saying and it is basically true. It is actually difficult to express this reality.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Cianan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:06 pm
Cianan wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:57 pm
Conventionally, sentient beings accomplish their individual awakening through the buddhadharma expounded in great compassion, but this can be likened to space being liberated into space. Ultimately, there are neither sentient beings nor buddhas; there is neither samsara nor nirvana; there is neither ignorance nor gnosis. These relative appearances are natural adornments of the non-apprehensible wakefulness of the dharmadhātu and equal in utter purity. The awakening of what is relatively apprehended as a buddha is this realization.
Well, actually, the "neither/nor" thing is considered the fourth extreme refuted by Nagarjuna. ;)
You're absolutely right, and I'm glad you could point that out. It's just a device to help convey the so-called non-apprehensibility of the prajnaparamita, but with this in mind, even the conventional expression of non-apprehensibility used by Sakyamuni necessarily misses the mark.
“All is an adornment for clarifying wisdom,
And is purified simply by realizing this.”
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:05 pm

Cianan wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:21 pm
You're absolutely right, and I'm glad you could point that out. It's just a device to help convey the so-called non-apprehensibility of the prajnaparamita, but with this in mind, even the conventional expression of non-apprehensibility used by Sakyamuni necessarily misses the mark.
Indeed!
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Vasana » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:32 pm

Here is another sutra that covers this topic. Bumping this thread as I think it's an often overlooked part of the teachings. How can we really make effective Bodhisattva aspirations if we have a wrong or 'lop-sided' understanding of what the terms bodhisattva, sentient beings, buddhas and transmigration actually refer to?

The sutra also explains the roots of some very serious but common views that can sprout from holding a view of decrease.

Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of Neither Increase Nor Decrease

Translated from Sanskrit into Chinese in the Northern Wei Dynasty by The Tripiṭaka Master Bodhiruci from India.
  • World-Honored One, for ages without a beginning, sentient beings have been transmigrating, through the four modes of birth in saṁsāra, along the six life-paths in the Three Realms of Existence, suffering endlessly. World-Honored One, does this mass of sentient beings, or ocean of sentient beings, increase and decrease? I cannot understand this profound meaning. If someone asks me about this, how should I answer?”

    The World-Honored One told Śāriputra, “Very good! Very good! You can ask me about this profound meaning because you want to bring stability to all sentient beings, to bring peace and joy to all sentient beings, to pity all sentient beings, to help all sentient beings, and to bring comfort and benefits to all sentient beings, such as gods and humans. Śāriputra, if you did not ask the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak-Saṁbuddha, about this meaning, there would be many faults. Why? Because, in present and future times, gods, humans, and all other sentient beings would long undergo distress and harm, and lose forever all benefits, peace, and joy.

    “Śāriputra, the enormously wrong view means seeing the realm of sentient beings [sattva-dhātu] increase or seeing the realm of sentient beings decrease. Śāriputra, sentient beings who hold this enormously wrong view are born as if without eyes and willfully walk the evil way in the long night. For this reason, they go down the evil life-paths in their current lives. Śāriputra, the enormously perilous tribulation means one’s obstinate adherence to [the wrong view] that the realm of sentient beings increases or decreases. Śāriputra, those who are obstinate in their wrong adherence willfully walk the evil way in the long night. For this reason, they will go down the evil life-paths in their future lives.

    “Śāriputra, foolish ordinary beings do not know the one dharma realm [dharma-dhātu] in accord with true reality.[1] Because they do not see the one dharma realm in accord with true reality, they elicit wrong views in their minds, saying that the realm of sentient beings increases or decreases. [...]
More here,
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra14.html
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Kamshan » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:56 am

Can each and every sentient being be liberated? Yes.
Will each and every sentient being be liberated? How would an answer to this question lead a person to freedom from suffering?

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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:21 am

There is no end to beings, so the answer is either no, or is so far beyond our current comprehension that it's not particularly worthy of speculation or conceptualizing.

If you're up for it though, read Myriad Worlds in The Treasury of Knowledge series by Jamgon Kongtrul, it is the most comprehensive explanation of Mahayana cosmology i've read personally.
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Re: Can all beings ever be liberated? The motivation of the bodhisattva.

Post by Jesse » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:05 am

Kamshan wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:56 am
Can each and every sentient being be liberated? Yes.
Will each and every sentient being be liberated? How would an answer to this question lead a person to freedom from suffering?

When we ourselves are liberated, all beings are liberated, and it really is true... Non-Duality. Simultaneously, we take the moral, and spiritual path of being reborn as bodhisattvas for endless time to help all those who remain unliberated.

the two truths aren't just a philosophical piece of meat.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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