Merit = good karma ?

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47635
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Merit = good karma ?

Post by 47635 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:03 pm

Is so-called ‘merit’ the same as so-called ‘good karma’?

Kunzang Tobgyal
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Kunzang Tobgyal » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:23 pm

47635 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Is so-called ‘merit’ the same as so-called ‘good karma’?
Merit comes about through positive actions, so yes.

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Grigoris
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:27 pm

Merit is normally accrued via wholesome actions (good karma). So it is an outcome of good karma, not good karma itself.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Mantrik » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:09 pm

47635 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Is so-called ‘merit’ the same as so-called ‘good karma’?
Put really simply:

Karma is Action
Vipaka is Consequence

So Merit may be seen as Vipaka resulting from positive Karma.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Kunzang Tobgyal » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:26 pm

Cause



and



Effect

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:01 am

Merits are secondary causes for "good" karma to manifest

Example: you desire a car, but if you dont have enough merits the car you want is difficult to manifest even if you have the money, and a lesser quality car might be more possible. If you don't have merits then no car will come.

Cause is your desire, secondary causes are merits. Having merits makes everything easier.

This is what i understand about how karma works.
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smcj
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:07 am

Merit=good karma.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

shaunc
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by shaunc » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 am

47635 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Is so-called ‘merit’ the same as so-called ‘good karma’?
Accumulating good merit is a way to get good karma.

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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:04 am

shaunc wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 am
47635 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Is so-called ‘merit’ the same as so-called ‘good karma’?
Accumulating good merit is a way to get good karma.
Accumulating merit is a way to get good action?

What does that even mean?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:08 am

smcj wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:07 am
Merit=good karma.
No.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:09 am

Seems there is a lot of confusion here, with people offering incorrect interpretations.

This wikipedia article is quite clear and comprehensive, I recommend people read it before posting their gibberish here again.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:09 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:04 am
shaunc wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 am
47635 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Is so-called ‘merit’ the same as so-called ‘good karma’?
Accumulating good merit is a way to get good karma.
Accumulating merit is a way to get good action?

What does that even mean?
It means people post in really short threads without reading the preceding comments which have already answered the question. Then they still post nonsense.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Grigoris
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:11 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:01 am
Merits are secondary causes for "good" karma to manifest
No. Merits are secondary causes for "good" karma vipaka to appear.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

smcj
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:08 am
smcj wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:07 am
Merit=good karma.
No.
Virtuous action creates merit/good karma. You can accumulate a store of merit/good karma. In the common Mahayana you must accumulate merit/good karma and awareness oth in order to become enlightened.

When merit/good karma ripens it is experienced as happiness or good circumstance. From the Wiki article you linked:
Vipāka (Sanskrit and Pāli) is a Buddhist term that refers to the ripening or maturation of karma (Pāli kamma), or intentional actions.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

shaunc
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by shaunc » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:04 am
shaunc wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 am
47635 wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:03 pm
Is so-called ‘merit’ the same as so-called ‘good karma’?
Accumulating good merit is a way to get good karma.
Accumulating merit is a way to get good action?

What does that even mean?
I don't recall posting that accumulating merit is a way to get good action.
I wrote that accumulating merit is a way to get good karma.

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Mantrik
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:16 pm

shaunc wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:07 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:04 am
shaunc wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 am


Accumulating good merit is a way to get good karma.
Accumulating merit is a way to get good action?

What does that even mean?
I don't recall posting that accumulating merit is a way to get good action.
I wrote that accumulating merit is a way to get good karma.
You don't 'get' karma. 'Karma' is the word for your action(s). 'Vipaka' is the word for the consequence(s).

So what you wrote makes no sense, as Grigoris showed by translating it for you. ;)
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

smcj
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:11 pm

Karma' is the word for your action(s).
“Action/karma” can be positive, negative, or neutral. Once you talk about the quality of an action (pos, neg, or neutral) you are talking about a potency, an energy, that your action has produced. (You cannot talk about karma ripening without positing it in an unripened state.) If we are talking about a virtuous action what is produced is called “merit” or “good karma”.
'Vipaka' is the word for the consequence(s).
Meaning karma that has ripened.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Grigoris
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:30 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:11 pm
what is produced is called “merit” or “good karma”.
No, the outcome of an action is not good karma, it is good karma VIPAKA. A good OUTCOME (vipaka) of ACTION (karma).

It is not rocket science. If you are going to use a term, use it correctly.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:33 pm

shaunc wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:07 pm
I don't recall posting that accumulating merit is a way to get good action.
I wrote that accumulating merit is a way to get good karma.
Did you read the articles I linked too? No. Obviously.

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Merit = good karma ?

Post by Mantrik » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:37 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:11 pm
Karma' is the word for your action(s).
“Action/karma” can be positive, negative, or neutral. Once you talk about the quality of an action you are talking about a potency, an energy, that your action has produced. You cannot talk about karma ripening without positing it in an unripened state. Between the time it’s produced and the time it ripens it is called “merit” or “good karma”.
'Vipaka' is the word for the consequence(s).
Meaning Karma that has ripened.
So you're saying that between an action and a consequence there is an outcome called 'merit' which isn't a consequence but is awaiting a consequence, even though it has been produced as a consequence of completed action?

Positive karma is positive action, positive merit is a form of vipaka. I'm aware translators vary the definition of vipaka slightly, but to treat merit as consequence but not a consequence is illogical at best. You are not producing a potential for something else, you are producing a consequence which may lead to other actions and consequences.

If my work produces income it is a consequence. That income has not yet 'ripened' into paying my rent and I may squander it. But it is still a consequence, a 'completed' outcome in its own right, and therefore vipaka.

I have to admit that I find very distasteful aspects of Lama control can be attached to this idea of 'merit'. If you have created a positive action, we will tell you how to 'bank it' as Merit and what rules you must follow not to lose it all.
So it is being interposed between action and consequence, again illogical. If we perform action which prevent the positive outcome from previous positive actions then it is simple to see the karma-vipaka relationship.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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