Great Transference question

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javier.espinoza.t
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Great Transference question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:44 am

Is there an explanation of what is great transference?

Afaik is not the same as rainbow-light-body, so it is pointed in a ChNN book because says that an individual that manifests great transferes does not manifest death and an individual that manifests rainbow-light-body does.

Anyone knows?

Sennin
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Sennin » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:24 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:44 am
Is there an explanation of what is great transference?

Afaik is not the same as rainbow-light-body, so it is pointed in a ChNN book because says that an individual that manifests great transferes does not manifest death and an individual that manifests rainbow-light-body does.

Anyone knows?
The Ati yoga Vidyadharas (Sri Simha etc.) who left a last testament departed in the manner of wisdom rainbow light. Guru Rinpoche and Pandita Vimalamitra endure as great transference kayas.
Go no paradigm! ;)

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Josef
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Josef » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:05 am

Longchenpa describes this in detail in the tsig don rinpochei dzod.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:08 am

Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:05 am
Longchenpa describes this in detail in the tsig don rinpochei dzod.
πŸ‘

It requires transmision?

Norwegian
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Norwegian » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:08 am
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:05 am
Longchenpa describes this in detail in the tsig don rinpochei dzod.
πŸ‘

It requires transmision?
If you're a student of ChNN, then you require direct introduction as well as having received thogal first.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:57 am

Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:08 am
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:05 am
Longchenpa describes this in detail in the tsig don rinpochei dzod.
πŸ‘

It requires transmision?
If you're a student of ChNN, then you require direct introduction as well as having received thogal first.
Oh i'm not on that level :(, it is necesary to have them both for only know the difference between the two attainments?

Norwegian
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Norwegian » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:03 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:57 am
Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:08 am


πŸ‘

It requires transmision?
If you're a student of ChNN, then you require direct introduction as well as having received thogal first.
Oh i'm not on that level :(, it is necesary to have them both for only know the difference between the two attainments?
It is necessary to have that if you want to study that text, according to ChNN.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:19 am


LolCat
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by LolCat » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:03 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:19 am
Is this correct?
https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/sorubasamadhi.htm
Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was a Dzogchen practitioner? I frequented a Hare Krishna temple very often as a kid and I am pretty sure they would take a lot of offence to that. The information on that page may or may not be correct, you are probably a much better of judge of that than I am, but I would be very suspicious of a page with a claim like that.

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heart
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by heart » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:08 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:19 am
Is this correct?
https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/sorubasamadhi.htm
No. Great transference mean you don't leave anything behind, not even nails or hair.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Kilaya.
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Kilaya. » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:49 am

LolCat wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:03 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:19 am
Is this correct?
https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/sorubasamadhi.htm
Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was a Dzogchen practitioner? I frequented a Hare Krishna temple very often as a kid and I am pretty sure they would take a lot of offence to that. The information on that page may or may not be correct, you are probably a much better of judge of that than I am, but I would be very suspicious of a page with a claim like that.
And they can't even get that right. According to the legend, at the end of his life Caitanya merged into a religious statue (Tota Gopinatha), hence the little fracture on the statue.
Look at those charlatans, madly engaged
in fervent argument.
- Milarepa

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:57 pm

heart wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:08 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:19 am
Is this correct?
https://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/sorubasamadhi.htm
No. Great transference mean you don't leave anything behind, not even nails or hair.

/magnus
Interesting.

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Josef
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Josef » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:45 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:57 am
Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:08 am


πŸ‘

It requires transmision?
If you're a student of ChNN, then you require direct introduction as well as having received thogal first.
Oh i'm not on that level :(, it is necesary to have them both for only know the difference between the two attainments?
There is no such restriction in terms of having received thogal teachings. DC students who have not received Longsal Thogal teachings are requested not to read the Longsal Thogal book, this does not extend to any books that include thogal material. That would be a serious limitation.

Many students of ChNN read the Yeshe Lama without having received teachings on thogal, one would also be forbidden from reading Malcolm's translations if this were the case.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Norwegian
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Norwegian » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 pm

Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:45 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:57 am
Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 am

If you're a student of ChNN, then you require direct introduction as well as having received thogal first.
Oh i'm not on that level :(, it is necesary to have them both for only know the difference between the two attainments?
There is no such restriction in terms of having received thogal teachings. DC students who have not received Longsal Thogal teachings are requested not to read the Longsal Thogal book, this does not extend to any books that include thogal material. That would be a serious limitation.

Many students of ChNN read the Yeshe Lama without having received teachings on thogal, one would also be forbidden from reading Malcolm's translations if this were the case.
ChNN's restriction is indeed on thogal material itself. He does not forbid you from receiving thogal from other teachers - or of course from him, if you're ready for it, as he says. But he says if you consider yourself as his student and have not received thogal at all whatsoever, then you should not read/study material on thogal until that happens, period. It's that simple. It's not about it being a "serious limitation" whatever that is supposed to be, it's about not reading material you haven't yet qualified to read.

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Josef
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Josef » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm

Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 pm
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:45 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:57 am


Oh i'm not on that level :(, it is necesary to have them both for only know the difference between the two attainments?
There is no such restriction in terms of having received thogal teachings. DC students who have not received Longsal Thogal teachings are requested not to read the Longsal Thogal book, this does not extend to any books that include thogal material. That would be a serious limitation.

Many students of ChNN read the Yeshe Lama without having received teachings on thogal, one would also be forbidden from reading Malcolm's translations if this were the case.
ChNN's restriction is indeed on thogal material itself. He does not forbid you from receiving thogal from other teachers - or of course from him, if you're ready for it, as he says. But he says if you consider yourself as his student and have not received thogal at all whatsoever, then you should not read/study material on thogal until that happens, period. It's that simple. It's not about it being a "serious limitation" whatever that is supposed to be, it's about not reading material you haven't yet qualified to read.
Even if that is the case it doesnt mean a student without thogal teachings can't read books that include instructions on thogal.
One can quite easily choose to only read what is relevant and appropriate to them.
A huge percentage of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring this advice if the restriction is so severe.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

climb-up
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by climb-up » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm

Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm
Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 pm
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:45 pm


There is no such restriction in terms of having received thogal teachings. DC students who have not received Longsal Thogal teachings are requested not to read the Longsal Thogal book, this does not extend to any books that include thogal material. That would be a serious limitation.

Many students of ChNN read the Yeshe Lama without having received teachings on thogal, one would also be forbidden from reading Malcolm's translations if this were the case.
ChNN's restriction is indeed on thogal material itself. He does not forbid you from receiving thogal from other teachers - or of course from him, if you're ready for it, as he says. But he says if you consider yourself as his student and have not received thogal at all whatsoever, then you should not read/study material on thogal until that happens, period. It's that simple. It's not about it being a "serious limitation" whatever that is supposed to be, it's about not reading material you haven't yet qualified to read.
Even if that is the case it doesnt mean a student without thogal teachings can't read books that include instructions on thogal.
One can quite easily choose to only read what is relevant and appropriate to them.
A huge percentage of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring this advice if the restriction is so severe.
My understanding is that, a huge number of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring (or simply ignorant of) his request not to read Thogal material without having received teachings.
In one of his books he recounts that on a trip to Tibet one of his students had a translation of some thogal material and everyone was passing it around and reading it and feeling like they were getting some cool secret teachings.
He says he was not happy about this, didn't like it at all, because (his words) he takes these teachigs seriously (that's how he put it, implying that the behavior he observered was not taking it seriously).

Norwegian
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Norwegian » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:28 pm

Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm
Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 pm
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:45 pm


There is no such restriction in terms of having received thogal teachings. DC students who have not received Longsal Thogal teachings are requested not to read the Longsal Thogal book, this does not extend to any books that include thogal material. That would be a serious limitation.

Many students of ChNN read the Yeshe Lama without having received teachings on thogal, one would also be forbidden from reading Malcolm's translations if this were the case.
ChNN's restriction is indeed on thogal material itself. He does not forbid you from receiving thogal from other teachers - or of course from him, if you're ready for it, as he says. But he says if you consider yourself as his student and have not received thogal at all whatsoever, then you should not read/study material on thogal until that happens, period. It's that simple. It's not about it being a "serious limitation" whatever that is supposed to be, it's about not reading material you haven't yet qualified to read.
Even if that is the case it doesnt mean a student without thogal teachings can't read books that include instructions on thogal.
One can quite easily choose to only read what is relevant and appropriate to them.
A huge percentage of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring this advice if the restriction is so severe.
Like Malcolm recently said in another thread:
People should not read the text without transmission. I know this is unpopular these days, but well, :rules:
At any rate, I am merely repeating what ChNN has said a great many times in his teachings.
climb-up wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm
My understanding is that, a huge number of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring (or simply ignorant of) his request not to read Thogal material without having received teachings.
In one of his books he recounts that on a trip to Tibet one of his students had a translation of some thogal material and everyone was passing it around and reading it and feeling like they were getting some cool secret teachings.
He says he was not happy about this, didn't like it at all, because (his words) he takes these teachigs seriously (that's how he put it, implying that the behavior he observered was not taking it seriously).
Correct. That is precisely it. Just because someone is a student of ChNN does not mean they somehow have their life in perfect order, or is a perfect student, just as it goes if someone is a student of HHDL, Dudjom Rinpoche, Karmapa, or any other teacher. There's many different kinds of students, and some people make mistakes, in varying degrees, minor and/or major ones, despite the quality of their teacher.

There are people who goes against the instructions of their teachers, for example regarding restricted teachings and don't care what they say. So yes you do indeed have Dzogchen Community students who don't give a shit what ChNN says about certain things.

And that is really sad, immensely sad. The consequence of such behavior is that they are hurting the progress of their own path.

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Josef
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Josef » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm

climb-up wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm
Norwegian wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:59 pm

ChNN's restriction is indeed on thogal material itself. He does not forbid you from receiving thogal from other teachers - or of course from him, if you're ready for it, as he says. But he says if you consider yourself as his student and have not received thogal at all whatsoever, then you should not read/study material on thogal until that happens, period. It's that simple. It's not about it being a "serious limitation" whatever that is supposed to be, it's about not reading material you haven't yet qualified to read.
Even if that is the case it doesnt mean a student without thogal teachings can't read books that include instructions on thogal.
One can quite easily choose to only read what is relevant and appropriate to them.
A huge percentage of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring this advice if the restriction is so severe.
My understanding is that, a huge number of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring (or simply ignorant of) his request not to read Thogal material without having received teachings.
In one of his books he recounts that on a trip to Tibet one of his students had a translation of some thogal material and everyone was passing it around and reading it and feeling like they were getting some cool secret teachings.
He says he was not happy about this, didn't like it at all, because (his words) he takes these teachigs seriously (that's how he put it, implying that the behavior he observered was not taking it seriously).
Im familiar with that story. It gets a very important point across. It does not however say, "no student of mine who has not received thogal teachings should ever read any book containing thogal teachings".
Theres a big difference.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Aryjna
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Aryjna » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:37 pm

Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm
climb-up wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm


Even if that is the case it doesnt mean a student without thogal teachings can't read books that include instructions on thogal.
One can quite easily choose to only read what is relevant and appropriate to them.
A huge percentage of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring this advice if the restriction is so severe.
My understanding is that, a huge number of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring (or simply ignorant of) his request not to read Thogal material without having received teachings.
In one of his books he recounts that on a trip to Tibet one of his students had a translation of some thogal material and everyone was passing it around and reading it and feeling like they were getting some cool secret teachings.
He says he was not happy about this, didn't like it at all, because (his words) he takes these teachigs seriously (that's how he put it, implying that the behavior he observered was not taking it seriously).
Im familiar with that story. It gets a very important point across. It does not however say, "no student of mine who has not received thogal teachings should ever read any book containing thogal teachings".
Theres a big difference.
But books on Yangti in the DC book stores require you to have attended a Yangti retreat, and there are no thogal books at all as far as I know showing up on the website. It is quite clear that he does not want people reading them unless they have the transmission.

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Josef
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Re: Great Transference question

Post by Josef » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:41 pm

Aryjna wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:37 pm
Josef wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:30 pm
climb-up wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:18 pm


My understanding is that, a huge number of Rinpoche's students are blatantly ignoring (or simply ignorant of) his request not to read Thogal material without having received teachings.
In one of his books he recounts that on a trip to Tibet one of his students had a translation of some thogal material and everyone was passing it around and reading it and feeling like they were getting some cool secret teachings.
He says he was not happy about this, didn't like it at all, because (his words) he takes these teachigs seriously (that's how he put it, implying that the behavior he observered was not taking it seriously).
Im familiar with that story. It gets a very important point across. It does not however say, "no student of mine who has not received thogal teachings should ever read any book containing thogal teachings".
Theres a big difference.
But books on Yangti in the DC book stores require you to have attended a Yangti retreat, and there are no thogal books at all as far as I know showing up on the website. It is quite clear that he does not want people reading them unless they have the transmission.
Yes, the Longsal Thogal and Longsal Yangti books are restricted to students who attended those retreats in person.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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