Is punishment of children required?

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Virgo » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:58 pm



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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by The Cicada » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:13 pm

Make them stare at a wall and think about nothing.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by muni » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:24 am

Punishing seems to come from frustration, losing patience, having the experience to lose control over 'the outer' by the feeling of self, and so definitely wanting to have that control back. Frustration is just like accompanying anger based on a desire. And desire is based on the experience of self.
In that way punishing has not a stable result without the risk to sow problems like insecurity by children. Reasoning or trying to talk without blame ( which is not so easy when you feel frustrated-confused) with small children is difficult. Show one finger up and say Oh! Don’t, or careful. Or, shall we have the cleanest teeth? ( never in a way of competition)

For growing ups, dialogue. And positive remarks like you can do so, since I trust you can.
When something is done, then to give with care an extra responsibility to the child, to allow it some freedom not just more restriction is perhaps a way to positively communicate. Since then they feel Ah, I do something good, which increases self-confidence. While merely punishing risks to take this away, and risks to give a young one more frustrations, and by that he-she seeks 'out' for solutions what are available and what are not at all to recommend. ( gangs, drugs, alcohol, weapons...)

In some cases it isn’t so easy at all. Some children have great confusions, causing seriously harm. I think here on murderers, criminals, they have also a mom, a dad. The child can have some nastiness on its consciousness stream I guess.

But seen what we can do is not losing patience (oh well!), not losing compassion( oh well!) and sometimes compassion is not the same as offering a nice piece of chocolate but appropriate speech-action. This can only by remaining aware, not being led by own usual frustrations ( oh well!) and anger. Children need love, clarity, stability, feeling safe.

Samsara is build on self-protection, this is not an example children need so much while confidence and teaching to be caring is not destructive for the child-the environment. Their happiness just like ours comes not from outer grasping to make 'the world' as we desire rather by our own actions, speech..

o o
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by muni » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:32 am

Seishin wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:48 pm
I'm also amazed at the amount of people who feel discipline = violence, hitting and anger. It is possible to discipline a child without resorting to these.
Yes, exactly. :anjali:
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Lukeinaz » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:53 am

muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:32 am
Seishin wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:48 pm
I'm also amazed at the amount of people who feel discipline = violence, hitting and anger. It is possible to discipline a child without resorting to these.
Yes, exactly. :anjali:
Yet, you are doing the same thing in your post above when you say "Punishing seems to come from frustration, losing patience....".

Punishment and discipline can be free of violence and anger.
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:20 pm

muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:24 am
Punishing seems to come from frustration, losing patience, having the experience to lose control over 'the outer' by the feeling of self, and so definitely wanting to have that control back. Frustration is just like accompanying anger based on a desire. And desire is based on the experience of self.
In that way punishing has not a stable result without the risk to sow problems like insecurity by children. Reasoning or trying to talk without blame ( which is not so easy when you feel frustrated-confused) with small children is difficult. Show one finger up and say Oh! Don’t, or careful. Or, shall we have the cleanest teeth? ( never in a way of competition)... [SNIP]

But seen what we can do is not losing patience (oh well!), not losing compassion( oh well!) and sometimes compassion is not the same as offering a nice piece of chocolate but appropriate speech-action. This can only by remaining aware, not being led by own usual frustrations ( oh well!) and anger. Children need love, clarity, stability, feeling safe.

Samsara is build on self-protection, this is not an example children need so much while confidence and teaching to be caring is not destructive for the child-the environment. Their happiness just like ours comes not from outer grasping to make 'the world' as we desire rather by our own actions, speech..

o o
All well and good. There's a saying: "everyone has a plan until the bullets start flying."

Do you have children? For some reason, I have strong doubts... :rolling:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by muni » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:59 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:20 pm
muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:24 am
Punishing seems to come from frustration, losing patience, having the experience to lose control over 'the outer' by the feeling of self, and so definitely wanting to have that control back. Frustration is just like accompanying anger based on a desire. And desire is based on the experience of self.
In that way punishing has not a stable result without the risk to sow problems like insecurity by children. Reasoning or trying to talk without blame ( which is not so easy when you feel frustrated-confused) with small children is difficult. Show one finger up and say Oh! Don’t, or careful. Or, shall we have the cleanest teeth? ( never in a way of competition)... [SNIP]

But seen what we can do is not losing patience (oh well!), not losing compassion( oh well!) and sometimes compassion is not the same as offering a nice piece of chocolate but appropriate speech-action. This can only by remaining aware, not being led by own usual frustrations ( oh well!) and anger. Children need love, clarity, stability, feeling safe.

Samsara is build on self-protection, this is not an example children need so much while confidence and teaching to be caring is not destructive for the child-the environment. Their happiness just like ours comes not from outer grasping to make 'the world' as we desire rather by our own actions, speech..

o o
All well and good. There's a saying: "everyone has a plan until the bullets start flying."

Do you have children? For some reason, I have strong doubts... :rolling:
Yes I have children, they are loved adults now.

I do not doubt children can really testing you.

Lukeinaz,
My emphasis is whether it is out of own frustration, desire or fear to lose control, or for the welfare of the child. And yes in some way that word "punishment" sounds as action by weakness and discipline not so, whether this is so or not. H H Dalai Lama gave examples of appropriate compassion which could use countermeasures. And this can be seen as violence or perhaps punishment as well but isn't.

https://www.dalailama.com/messages/comp ... compassion
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:33 pm

muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:59 pm
Yes I have children, they are loved adults now.

I do not doubt children can really testing you.
I think you forgot what its like... :rolling:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by tingdzin » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:52 pm

Setting limits is required, both for the child and for the society he or she is growing up in. Most children, and many "adults", will see any attempt to limit the expansion of their ego-selves as punishment.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:00 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:52 pm
Setting limits is required, both for the child and for the society he or she is growing up in. Most children, and many "adults", will see any attempt to limit the expansion of their ego-selves as punishment.
good point.

That process is also sometimes called "socialization".

Studies show that children thrive when they have boundaries and expectations. When they don't, they don't thrive.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by muni » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:01 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:33 pm
muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:59 pm
Yes I have children, they are loved adults now.

I do not doubt children can really testing you.
I think you forgot what its like... :rolling:
Or perhaps just because I remember vividly the joy of suffering by frustrations. :smile: Such cannot be called dharma in daily life, believe me.
At least it is temporary.

Discipline however is not the same as punishments.
Here seen through scientific studies:
Long considered an effective, and even necessary, means of socialising children, physical punishment has been revealed to be a predictor of a wide range of negative developmental outcomes. The extent of agreement in the research literature on this issue is unusual in the social sciences. Physical punishment is associated with increased child aggression, antisocial behaviour, lower intellectual achievement, poorer quality of parent–child relationships, mental health problems (such as depression), and diminished moral internalisation. The evidence about whether physical punishment results in short-term compliance is mixed, with some studies showing effectiveness in achieving this and others not. Short-term compliance can, however, be achieved as effectively without using physical punishment. Physical punishment has negative effects on child outcomes, especially if it is harsh, regardless of culture. When punishment use is normative in a culture, the effects are slightly less negative. Research findings support ongoing efforts to help parents use more positive methods of parenting, and the removal of a defence in law for the use of physical punishment against children...
https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-o ... 4-127.html
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by SonamTashi » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:49 pm

muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:01 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:33 pm
muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:59 pm
Yes I have children, they are loved adults now.

I do not doubt children can really testing you.
I think you forgot what its like... :rolling:
Or perhaps just because I remember vividly the joy of suffering by frustrations. :smile: Such cannot be called dharma in daily life, believe me.
At least it is temporary.

Discipline however is not the same as punishments.
Here seen through scientific studies:
Long considered an effective, and even necessary, means of socialising children, physical punishment has been revealed to be a predictor of a wide range of negative developmental outcomes. The extent of agreement in the research literature on this issue is unusual in the social sciences. Physical punishment is associated with increased child aggression, antisocial behaviour, lower intellectual achievement, poorer quality of parent–child relationships, mental health problems (such as depression), and diminished moral internalisation. The evidence about whether physical punishment results in short-term compliance is mixed, with some studies showing effectiveness in achieving this and others not. Short-term compliance can, however, be achieved as effectively without using physical punishment. Physical punishment has negative effects on child outcomes, especially if it is harsh, regardless of culture. When punishment use is normative in a culture, the effects are slightly less negative. Research findings support ongoing efforts to help parents use more positive methods of parenting, and the removal of a defence in law for the use of physical punishment against children...
https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-o ... 4-127.html
So full disclosure, I'm not a parent, don't particularly want to be, and don't know the answer to the topic of this discussion. However, I am finding the variety of answers by different kinds of parents intriguing.

I just wanted to say that you seem to be making a straw man out of the people you're arguing with. No one here is for physical punishment of children (that i've seen anyways) and some have even specifically remarked that they find it strange that people automatically associate punishment with physical punishment. Idk, it just seems like from your quote that you're ignoring that. It is possible to punish (discipline if you like that better) without using violence.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:00 pm

muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:01 pm
Or perhaps just because I remember vividly the joy of suffering by frustrations. :smile: Such cannot be called dharma in daily life, believe me.
At least it is temporary.
With distance, our memories have a tendency to omit the rough edges!

I'm making a joke.

Even when my children are throwing tantrums and they test my anger threshold, even when I lose patience and yell in the scariest voice I can manage, there are moments of clarity where I consider how precious that moment in time is, where my heart over flows with love for these little people I am responsible for raising. I see their eyes looking at me and I see that they seek attention and validation.

The joy of suffering by frustrations, indeed!
Discipline however is not the same as punishments.
In my mind, there is a distinction between corporal punishment, like spanking, and other types of punishment such as withholding privileges - no dessert, time out alone, grounding, no television, etc. Is that the distinction between punishment and discipline for you, or is there something more to this distinction?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Jeff H » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:00 pm
Even when I lose patience and yell in the scariest voice I can manage ... my heart over flows with love for these little people I am responsible for raising.
This is an edited version of what QQ said, but it expresses my feelings, and I hope it doesn’t distort his intention. I think the thread title asks the wrong question. Not “is punishment of children required” but “what do children require?” I think they require love, guidance, and limitations.

I worked as a family mediator out of a runaway shelter in suburban Long Island. We gave runaways shelter first, then, with their permission and acting as their agents, we would go into the homes and offer mediation services.

One of the key things we tried to get across was that unfiltered adult anger is too intense to be directed at a child. For me, that constitutes violence, regardless of whether physical violence follows. On the other hand, children need guidance from responsible adults who apply it firmly, fairly, and consistently.

I interpret QQ’s “losing patience” as arising from genuine concern for the child’s wellbeing combined with frustration when they just aren’t getting the message. “The scariest voice I can manage”, to me, does not mean out-of-control adult anger, but intentionally dialing back his frustration and using the appearance of anger to get the child’s attention -- for the purpose of delivering an important message. All the while retaining enough presence not to lash out and a readiness to stop appearing angry the moment he actually has the child’s attention.

We could call it the middle way. To punish or not punish is not the question, but rather how do you meet all the crazy things kids do with the most beneficial response. A “heart overflowing with love for these little people” is the key. The method must be neither too taut nor too slack, but in tune.

That's as close to a universal rule of parenthood as I can imagine. But we all know that most people can't or won't apply it; not in past, present, or future generations. This is samsara. Still, it's good to get it out there for those who can hear.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Ayu » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:30 am

Couldn't agree more, Jeff H.

This is samsara. Actually we do not rear the children by our plans and intention merely. They learn a great amount from our unconscious attitude. Adults cannot really hide any emotion from their kids. Therefore adults have to learn to be honest to themselves. This prevents much confusion.

It is disastrous to say 'I'm peaceful' when you're not. Or 'I love you', when you don't. For adults it is most important to become aware about their own emotions and to deal with them honestly. This prevents blaming the kids for situations they are not responsible for.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by muni » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:47 am

SonamTashi wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:49 pm
muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:01 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:33 pm


I think you forgot what its like... :rolling:
Or perhaps just because I remember vividly the joy of suffering by frustrations. :smile: Such cannot be called dharma in daily life, believe me.
At least it is temporary.

Discipline however is not the same as punishments.
Here seen through scientific studies:
Long considered an effective, and even necessary, means of socialising children, physical punishment has been revealed to be a predictor of a wide range of negative developmental outcomes. The extent of agreement in the research literature on this issue is unusual in the social sciences. Physical punishment is associated with increased child aggression, antisocial behaviour, lower intellectual achievement, poorer quality of parent–child relationships, mental health problems (such as depression), and diminished moral internalisation. The evidence about whether physical punishment results in short-term compliance is mixed, with some studies showing effectiveness in achieving this and others not. Short-term compliance can, however, be achieved as effectively without using physical punishment. Physical punishment has negative effects on child outcomes, especially if it is harsh, regardless of culture. When punishment use is normative in a culture, the effects are slightly less negative. Research findings support ongoing efforts to help parents use more positive methods of parenting, and the removal of a defence in law for the use of physical punishment against children...
https://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-o ... 4-127.html
So full disclosure, I'm not a parent, don't particularly want to be, and don't know the answer to the topic of this discussion. However, I am finding the variety of answers by different kinds of parents intriguing.

I just wanted to say that you seem to be making a straw man out of the people you're arguing with. No one here is for physical punishment of children (that i've seen anyways) and some have even specifically remarked that they find it strange that people automatically associate punishment with physical punishment. Idk, it just seems like from your quote that you're ignoring that. It is possible to punish (discipline if you like that better) without using violence.

Happy people explain here punishment is not just physical.
Most parents do their best for their children’s welfare and many children grow up with stability, love and the useful discipline. My concern is there is alas as well a lot of suffering by misbehavior and harm in different forms due to ignorance-confusion. One example was the study I posted, but there is not just physical violence which can be called “punishment” as excuse, there are also other forms (humiliation and so). These parents and children deserve as well careful support.

For myself I add this: “However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?”

From the OP:
The hard part, is that with out the anger/punishment system, you will need patience, generosity, discipline, moral strength, meditation and wisdom... doah! that is buddhism!
It is great to see how loving parents are, with the loving corrections included.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

muni
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by muni » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:00 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:00 pm
muni wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:01 pm
Or perhaps just because I remember vividly the joy of suffering by frustrations. :smile: Such cannot be called dharma in daily life, believe me.
At least it is temporary.
With distance, our memories have a tendency to omit the rough edges!

I'm making a joke.

Even when my children are throwing tantrums and they test my anger threshold, even when I lose patience and yell in the scariest voice I can manage, there are moments of clarity where I consider how precious that moment in time is, where my heart over flows with love for these little people I am responsible for raising. I see their eyes looking at me and I see that they seek attention and validation.

The joy of suffering by frustrations, indeed!
Discipline however is not the same as punishments.
In my mind, there is a distinction between corporal punishment, like spanking, and other types of punishment such as withholding privileges - no dessert, time out alone, grounding, no television, etc. Is that the distinction between punishment and discipline for you, or is there something more to this distinction?
It's perfect Queequeg, you are an example of a loving parent.

"Children have to be able to understand what their mistakes are and how they can make amends."

Something more? Not at all.
Or wait, if you yell again, no pc. :jumping: You are making a joke? Well...
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by muni » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:47 am

Tsoknyi Rinpoche helped with concern to this topic, like by looking within.
And also schools play a great roll.

http://www.bodhikids.org/tsoknyi-rinpoche/

https://www.coursera.org/learn/buddhist ... i-rinpoche
And Mingyur Rinpoche’s educational worldview is to provide learning that supports children’s inner development. Rinpoche believes that learning needs to be a joyful experience so it can cultivate in children a lifelong love of acquiring knowledge. Therefore, under Rinpoche’s close guidance, a new Transformative Buddhist Learning curriculum for kindergarten and primary school is being developed. In this approach, children are seen as whole beings from birth and each phase of their development is recognised and nurtured. Rinpoche points out that each child is a unique individual who must receive love, warm care, respect, and be treated as an equal in order to flourish spiritually.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Manju » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:19 am

My son is in his 20ies now and doing well.

I never had the urge to ````punish```` him for something during his entire childhood.

Wonder why one would have such an idea.
We discussed things and if he wanted to do it his way then he bore the consequences, finished.

BTW, I am observing closely what Muni wrote about and it`s pretty fascinating:

``Under Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche`s close guidance, a new Transformative Buddhist Learning curriculum for kindergarten and primary school is being developed.``

:thumbsup:

Manju

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Seishin » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:56 am

This thread got me thinking, and I was talking with my mum about it at the weekend. She said to me that she never had to discipline me and my brothers as kids and we were all good... however I remember (and reminded her) of the amount of times she'd slap us across the legs, and the times she'd shout at us, and the times we were grounded etc etc.... I think as we get older we remember the good far more than the bad, or maybe we forget our own downfalls, or maybe a bit of both. Either way, none of us are perfect parents and there's no such thing as a perfect child.

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