US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:54 pm

There is no deep state in the US. The term is being misapplied by far right guys like Snowden, and the far left, in short by the forces of illiberalism. The deep state refers to the way in some countries, the military runs the political agenda. That is not happening in US.

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WuMing
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by WuMing » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:59 pm

Be prepared to die well! Death might come unexpectedly and sooner as you want to.

Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:01 pm

Like I said, the deep state meme is far-right/left conspiracy theory.

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WuMing
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by WuMing » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:55 pm

Malcolm, with all due respect, but I think here you're wrong, and in my opinion it does not have anything to do with far-right/left conspiracy theory.

There is a Swiss historian who is doing research on the "deep state" (among others), unfortunately I can't find any source of his research in English about that, but anyway, here is a good TED talk of this historian, worth to watch.

And here an interview with Professor Peter Dale Scott
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Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:02 pm

WuMing wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:55 pm
Malcolm, with all due respect, but I think here you're wrong, and in my opinion it does not have anything to do with far-right/left conspiracy theory.

There is a Swiss historian who is doing research on the "deep state" (among others), unfortunately I can't find any source of his research in English about that, but anyway, here is a good TED talk of this historian, worth to watch.

And here an interview with Professor Peter Dale Scott
I will be frank. The deep state theory is essentially accusing career employees of the US goverment of hijacking the US government. This obviously has not happened. It is a myth that only serves the forces of illiberalism in the world, and is basically a modern version of the Protocols Of the Elders of Zion type of belief.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan74
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Dan74 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:26 pm

Again the unnecessary comparison to Russia only underscore the paucity of the argument. Russia does not have free media, no one seriously pretends that it does. But intelligent people like Malcolm still apparently think that the US media are free.

The groupthink they exhibit on a whole host of issues is clearly a result of freedom of thought... yeah..

Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:29 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:26 pm
Again the unnecessary comparison to Russia only underscore the paucity of the argument. Russia does not have free media, no one seriously pretends that it does. But intelligent people like Malcolm still apparently think that the US media are free.

The groupthink they exhibit on a whole host of issues is clearly a result of freedom of thought... yeah..
We have a free press in the US. CNN, Fox, MSNBC are not the press.

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:17 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:26 pm
Again the unnecessary comparison to Russia only underscore the paucity of the argument. Russia does not have free media, no one seriously pretends that it does. But intelligent people like Malcolm still apparently think that the US media are free.

The groupthink they exhibit on a whole host of issues is clearly a result of freedom of thought... yeah..
One needs to bend over backwards to claim US lacks freedom of press. I like the backbend, Dan. :lol:

A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:21 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_o ... ss_freedom

Ranking of United States press freedom[edit]
Freedom House, an independent watchdog organization, ranked the United States 30th out of 197 countries in press freedom in 2014.[22] Its report praised the constitutional protections given American journalists and criticized authorities for placing undue limits on investigative reporting in the name of national security. Freedom House gives countries a score out of 100, with 0 the most free and 100 the least free. The score is broken down into three separately-weighted categories: legal (out of 30), political (out of 40) and economic (out of 30). The United States scored 6, 10, and 5, respectively, that year for a cumulative score of 21.[23]

In 2014, the U.S. ranked 46th in the Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index.[24] This is a measure of freedom available to the press, which encompasses areas such as government censorship and is not indicative of journalistic quality. Its ranking fell from 20th in 2010 to 42nd in 2012, which was attributed to arrests of journalists covering the Occupy movement.[25] The U.S. ranked 49th in 2015 and 41st in 2016.[26][27] In 2012, Finland and Norway tied for first place worldwide. Canada ranked 10th, Germany tied with Jamaica for 17th and Japan tied with Suriname for 22nd. The UK ranked 28th, Australia 30th and France 38th. Extraterritorial regions of the U.S. ranked 57th.

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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Norwegian » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:40 pm

As you can see here (2014 report):

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... m-rankings

There's three categories: Free, Partly Free, and Not Free. USA while having a score of 30 certainly is not "awesome" (unlike Norway, Netherlands, and Finland with 1 as score), it's certainly not terrible either.

As a comparison: Germany with 18, Canada with 26, France and Australia with 33, United Kingdom with 36, Japan with 42. All in the Free category.

Greece, home of Grigoris, with 92 (Partly Free).

Meanwhile Russia with 176 (Not Free). Which is really bad...
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A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:45 pm

Last edited by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha on Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:46 pm

From: https://rsf.org/en/united-states
The Obama administration waged a war on whistleblowers who leaked information about its activities, leading to the prosecution of more leakers than any previous administration combined.
They note this as "bad," but leaks and whistleblowing seriously undermines national security. I side with the Obama admin on this one.

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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:49 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:21 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_o ... ss_freedom

Ranking of United States press freedom[edit]
...and criticized authorities for placing undue limits on investigative reporting in the name of national security. /quote]
Again, leakers should be prosecuted. Period.

A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:54 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:49 pm
leakers should be prosecuted. Period.
How about if the government is hiding mind blowing information regarding contact with extraterrestrials.......
I think humanity has a right to know....

I think not telling us the truth should be reason for us prosecuting them....humanity, the world, has a right to know what's going on in the universe....and it's not fair for only the selective elite to know THE TRUTH
The only way we can evolve is if we know the truth.
Last edited by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha on Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:02 am

Snowbear wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:46 pm
From: https://rsf.org/en/united-states
The Obama administration waged a war on whistleblowers who leaked information about its activities, leading to the prosecution of more leakers than any previous administration combined.
They note this as "bad," but leaks and whistleblowing seriously undermines national security. I side with the Obama admin on this one.
That depends, sometimes people leak things which turn out to be in the national interest, like the pentagon papers. Exposing clear evidence of government and corporate corruption and malfeasance is never a bad thing. This is why a free press is essential to liberal democracy.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:02 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:54 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:49 pm
leakers should be prosecuted. Period.
How about if the government is hiding mind blowing information regarding contact with extraterrestrials.......
I think humanity has a right to know....
If the US government can't be competent enough to protect its secrets, it would be chicken fodder to its adversaries who do have that advantage. Irresponsible things like this should not happen.

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:04 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:02 am
Snowbear wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:46 pm
From: https://rsf.org/en/united-states
The Obama administration waged a war on whistleblowers who leaked information about its activities, leading to the prosecution of more leakers than any previous administration combined.
They note this as "bad," but leaks and whistleblowing seriously undermines national security. I side with the Obama admin on this one.
That depends, sometimes people leak things which turn out to be in the national interest, like the pentagon papers.
Not prosecuting whistleblowers normalizes the behavior.
Last edited by Snowbear on Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:08 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:02 am
This is why tend free press is essential to liberal democracy.
It's always difficult to balance free press and national security for a democracy, but I think national security should trump free press almost every time.

Malcolm
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:09 am

Snowbear wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:08 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:02 am
This is why tend free press is essential to liberal democracy.
It's always difficult to balance free press and national security for a democracy, but I think national security should trump free press almost every time.
I don’t, that path leads to fascism.

Snowbear
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Re: US and Allies Launch Strikes on Syria

Post by Snowbear » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:10 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:09 am
Snowbear wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:08 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:02 am
This is why tend free press is essential to liberal democracy.
It's always difficult to balance free press and national security for a democracy, but I think national security should trump free press almost every time.
I don’t, that path leads to fascism.
I think the US is balancing it fairly well.

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