Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

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Spelare
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Tue May 15, 2018 12:06 am

krodha wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:52 pm
The Dzogchen tantras on the other hand are understood to use the same language rhetorically
Fine, but you never answered whether that understanding is in the tantras themselves, in self-commentaries presumably written around the same time or not long after, or in significantly later commentaries. Later commentators would have a strong vested interest in tying up any apparent loose ends or ambiguities, and they would do so according to their scholastic monastic training.
and this information was voluntarily provided under no threat of beheading.
That is true. I have to wonder whether the early Dzogchenpas ever got in trouble and were punished, though. That would account somewhat for the emphasis on secrecy. Some of the early stories about Vairotsana involve persecution, right? Certainly, tantrikas in general stirred up controversy with their conduct. I guess some tantrikas would've been surprised and taken aback by Dzogchen.

I would agree, of course, that medieval India was a more hospitable climate for differences in spiritual doctrine and practice than was Europe at the same time. Tibet usually was, too, though I think there were some unfortunate sectarian conflicts.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 12:07 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:58 pm
The essence of Buddhist teaching is Dzogchen, which is the final teaching of the Buddha Shakyamuni. Through Dzogchen we can really understand what George is and we don’t have to worry if there is a George or not. George always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.”

Because, you know, he has also said the basis was "George."

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue May 15, 2018 12:07 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:07 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:58 pm
The essence of Buddhist teaching is Dzogchen, which is the final teaching of the Buddha Shakyamuni. Through Dzogchen we can really understand what George is and we don’t have to worry if there is a George or not. George always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody.”

Because, you know, he has also said the basis was "George."

Touché.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Losal Samten » Tue May 15, 2018 12:08 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:58 pm
I had thought the relevance of CTR saying that the "concept of the nonexistence of the divinity principle outside of one's existence" was understood "fully and completely" by at least some Christians would be obvious, considering that the topic of this thread is the following quote:
Cool, fair enough. I would disagree that it would be taken as a given though, even by former insiders; for some reason the mystical aspects aren't widely taught about in Catholic churches at least here in the UK, it's up to oneself to discover that. I don't know if the Orthodox churches/countries are better, since they have a greater tradition of institutionalised mysticism.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am

Losal Samten wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:08 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:58 pm
I had thought the relevance of CTR saying that the "concept of the nonexistence of the divinity principle outside of one's existence" was understood "fully and completely" by at least some Christians would be obvious, considering that the topic of this thread is the following quote:
Cool, fair enough. I would disagree that it would be taken as a given though, even by former insiders; for some reason the mystical aspects aren't widely taught about in Catholic churches at least here in the UK, it's up to oneself to discover that. I don't know if the Orthodox churches/countries are better, since they have a greater tradition of institutionalised mysticism.
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Tue May 15, 2018 12:19 am

Losal Samten wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:08 am
I don't know if the Orthodox churches/countries are better, since they have a greater tradition of institutionalised mysticism.
They are better in a lot of ways. Their tendency towards apophaticism, i.e. unsaying or negation, makes them less rigid than the Christian West. They don't have original sin, and that makes a huge difference in peoples' lives.

There is a sophisticated Orthodox teaching about the uncreated Light of Tabor, which is witnessed in contemplation. They are clear that it is not a physical, visible light. One graced with the sight in this lifetime is said to have received the sign of salvation and deification according to their original divine image. Their Prayer of the Heart that involves letting awareness sink into the heart center is nice.

However, their spirituality is 100% ascetic renunciate. Lay people often look upon monks as the real Orthodox, and themselves as approximating that ideal due to their inability to live up to the spiritual warrior ideal. Passions are demons to be vanquished. Though when Evagrius says you can befriend your demons, that reminds me just a bit of chöd . . . not that superficial resemblances or even structural parallels prove that the underlying principle is the same.
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but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Tue May 15, 2018 12:25 am

They are not experiencing the nature of mind, they are experiencing consciousness. We can say they are experiencing an aspect of mind, their meditation leaning heavily towards clarity. Their meditation is not complete. One leads to liberation the other doesn't. There nothing else to it.

Kevin

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Losal Samten » Tue May 15, 2018 12:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.
Lack of siddhanta study and unfortunate traces bubbling up I suppose.

Do you know if the old Indian converts had these issues popping up in people to the degree that Westerners do? The most obvious I can think of is the ex-Jaina who started pudgalavada.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Spelare » Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.
Because we interact with non-Buddhists on a daily basis. So, we have at least three options:

a) we don't talk to them about Dharma
b) we talk about it from the perspective of not understanding the profundity of their tradition
c) We've done our homework, and can recognize what is genuinely similar and what is non-negotiably different

By studying these other doctrines, we also clarify to ourselves what is truly distinctive about Buddhism and its vehicles.
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue May 15, 2018 12:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.

ChNN must not have gotten the memo since, apparently, he considers Jesus to have been an enlightened being.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by krodha » Tue May 15, 2018 12:47 am

Spelare wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:06 am
Fine, but you never answered whether that understanding is in the tantras themselves, in self-commentaries presumably written around the same time or not long after, or in significantly later commentaries. Later commentators would have a strong vested interest in tying up any apparent loose ends or ambiguities, and they would do so according to their scholastic monastic training.
Overall, what does it matter? Are you insinuating that you believe there is a case to be made for interpreting the use of "I" literally?

That the intention behind including said pronoun in these texts is solely meant to communicate that there is some sort of actual personification of the nature of mind, existing somewhere, that is giving teachings like some god?

That would be the consequence of such a position.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Losal Samten » Tue May 15, 2018 12:53 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:34 am
ChNN must not have gotten the memo since, apparently, he considers Jesus to have been an enlightened being.
Buddhas emanating as tirthika spiritual teachers, gods, etc. is scripturally noted.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 12:59 am

Spelare wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:28 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 12:12 am
In the end, why do we give a flying f*&k about any of this? The Buddha was very clear: outside of his Dharmavinaya, the four kinds of āryas— stream entrants, once returners, never returners, and arhats— do not exist.
Because we interact with non-Buddhists on a daily basis. So, we have at least three options:

a) we don't talk to them about Dharma
This is the best thing, unless they ask.

b) we talk about it from the perspective of not understanding the profundity of their tradition
Are other traditions profound? How so? How do they lead to something other than higher birth in samsara?
c) We've done our homework, and can recognize what is genuinely similar and what is non-negotiably different

By studying these other doctrines, we also clarify to ourselves what is truly distinctive about Buddhism and its vehicles.
The only thing similar between Buddhadharma and other traditions is that we all emphasize compassion; but even here, the compassion of other traditions is limited in its scope.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by smcj » Tue May 15, 2018 1:04 am

,,,not to mention his affinity for the apophatic approach. None of this resembles Dzogchen or Buddhism in general in any way.
Nāgārjuna isn’t apophatic?
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 1:10 am

smcj wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:04 am
,,,not to mention his affinity for the apophatic approach. None of this resembles Dzogchen or Buddhism in general in any way.
Nāgārjuna isn’t apophatic?
Nope.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Tue May 15, 2018 1:19 am

Guys this is all tirthika stuff, a serious waste of time. Wouldn't we better off talking about something more relevant to our lives like was Rush more of a progressive rock band or a more of a metal band, in your opinion? I think that would be more of a stimulating conversation, rather than talking about samsaric pathways. If it leads to rebirth, it is just uninteresting.

Kevin...

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 15, 2018 1:32 am

Virgo wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:19 am
Guys this is all tirthika stuff, a serious waste of time. Wouldn't we better off talking about something more relevant to our lives like was Rush more of a progressive rock band or a more of a metal band, in your opinion? I think that would be more of a stimulating conversation, rather than talking about samsaric pathways. If it leads to rebirth, it is just uninteresting.

Kevin...
Take it up with Dzogchungpa, he is the main pro-tīrthika guy on the board.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Tue May 15, 2018 1:35 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:32 am

Take it up with Dzogchungpa, he is the main pro-tīrthika guy on the board.
Yeah, there is a great tirthika church near by called Rock Solid I could hook him up with. :smile:

Kevin...
Last edited by Virgo on Tue May 15, 2018 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Tue May 15, 2018 1:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:27 pm
Ignorance also has a cause in Dzogchen. There are no first causes. And even Samantabhadra possessed ignorance.
Loppon, what is the cause of ignorance, the first link of dependent origination?

How does Samantabhadra posses ignorance?
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
🙏🌺🙏 Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
🙏🌺🙏

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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Post by Virgo » Tue May 15, 2018 1:52 am

I still think this thread is going to take a turn for the worse and should be locked up (QUARANTINE!) The OP's questions has been answered successfully anyway by Loppon.

Kevin

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