Vasana wrote: ↑
Wed May 16, 2018 4:13 pm
Ogyen wrote: ↑
Wed May 16, 2018 3:52 pm
Vasana wrote: ↑
Wed May 16, 2018 11:52 am
Faith as it said in Christianity results in heaven but also the virtues and their results as spoken in the dharma. Its a religion designed to avoid the hells so on that merit alone I think it has its own relative value.
Wrong View whether it be Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, voodoo etc produces wrong view, wrong action, more karma, and rebirth. Therefore more dependence to the 12 nidanas.
Christian heavens are a fantasy that not even Christians agree upon, with little explanation of causality because it is based on creator magic and not karma-i.e. cause effect... and many notions acted upon in their human life are still based in wrong view and therefore will lead many a Christian to the hells even if they aspire to their wrong-view-based concept of heaven.
Yet most religions share emphasis on virtue. Buddhism establishes the results of virtue as rebirth in higher realms. That was my line of reasoning.
As for Buddhist heaven being a fantasy...how do you know? Seems just as much of a feasable possibility as any other religions' proposed heaven. As for any given religions pantheon of unseen beings. Cosmological views of upper and lower realms have existed for a long long time across different cultures. Seems odd to think that only the Buddhist and Hindu conception of the upper and lower realms are definitive and every conception of heaven prior or concurrent to those are rooted in fantasy. The map is not the territory but I find it interesting that so many different religions and world views have similarities in their conception of upper and lower realms.
Imo, there's room for multiple heaven realms based on various belief systems. Do I believe these are liberation from samsara? No. Do I believe rebirth in these realms is possible? Yes.
The question is what do Christians mean by 'virtue'. For many Christians, virtue means accepting Christ, while being homophobic and nationalistic. Do they cultivate compassion deliberately? If yes, is it unconditional? If not, then how can they meet a god that supposedly has unconditional compassion after death? Then again, doesn't look like the Christian god's compassion is anywhere near unconditional based on the Bible, but this could be debated.
The existence of many different heavens is not the problem, the problem is whether they can get there based on their practices. The Christian clergy in many countries is known for its intolerance and blind attachment to their dogma. Of course there may be exceptions, but these are exceptions, not the rule. A sutra that I think directly applies here is Tevijja Sutta, especially the part examining the behaviour of brahmins in comparison to the heaven to which they aspire to get to after death:
Then you say, too, Vāseṭṭha, that
those brahmins learned in the Three Vedas have hate in their hearts but Brahmā does not;
those brahmins have ill will in their hearts but Brahmā has not;
those brahmins have impure hearts but Brahmā does not;
those brahmins lack self-mastery but Brahmā does not.
35.2 Is there anything common or alike—these brahmins of the Three Vedas who have wives, and
Brahmā who does not?”
“Certainly not, master Gotama.”
Excellent, Vāseṭṭha. Those brahmins learned in the Three Vedas lack self-mastery—and yet they
hope that after death, they would attain companionship with Brahmā who has self-mastery—indeed, this
is not possible.130
36.2 As such, Vāseṭṭha, those brahmins learned in the Three Vedas, having sat down (on the river
bank) would sink down (in the mire). And so sinking, they would only come to despair, wondering how
to cross over (the river) without getting wet.131
36.3 Therefore, these Three Vedas are called the three knowledges that are a desert, the three
knowledges that are a jungle, the three knowledges that are a disaster!”