Dzogchen Practitioner to Amitabha-like Buddha

[Grigoris]

How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.

Finally, a truly practice-related question.

Another dzogchungpa (tm) putdown.

I do believe that, for once, he is being serious.

[Malcolm]

Finally, a truly practice-related question.

Another dzogchungpa (tm) putdown.

I do believe that, for once, he is being serious.

Nice joke.

[Grigoris]

Nice joke.

Ye of little faith!

[Malcolm]

Nice joke.

Ye of little faith!

Who needs faith when one has the evidence of one's eyes.

[Motova]

How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.

One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.

Are you saying that all Buddhas have the potential to manifest as Amitabha?

[Wicked Yeshe]

You can attain rebirth in the eastern paradise of medicine buddha. But it is a lot more difficult than the western pure land. Gives a lot of stuff for thought. Also this world is considered an impure buddha field that can be turned into a full pure land. Potentially at least. Who knows how and when?

[Malcolm]

How long would it take a Dzogchen practitioner to make a Pure Land better than Buddha Amitabha's?

Thanks.

One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.

Are you saying that all Buddhas have the potential to manifest as Amitabha?

No, I am saying that buddhafields are not something outside you.

[Malcolm]

You can attain rebirth in the eastern paradise of medicine buddha. But it is a lot more difficult than the western pure land. Gives a lot of stuff for thought. Also this world is considered an impure buddha field that can be turned into a full pure land. Potentially at least. Who knows how and when?

Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.

[Wicked Yeshe]

Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

[dzogchungpa]

Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

I used to feel the same way but this really opened my eyes.

[Malcolm]

Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

Then your bodhicitta is weak.

[Wicked Yeshe]

Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

I used to feel the same way but this really opened my eyes.

Thank you.

[Wicked Yeshe]

Sounds promising. But Sukhavati seems so pleasant i wouldn't mind being there for that long time.

Then your bodhicitta is weak.

Maybe! I think of it as samvega.

[cyril]

Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.

I guess that depends on your definition of the worst Dzogchen practitioner. Apparently, receiving Dzogchen teachings and praticing them to the best of your abilities does not necessarily make you a Dzogchen practitioner albeit ofthe worst kind.

A couple of days before we left, Khenpo arranged for his brother, Kyali Loli, to have an interview with the Chatralwa. Loli was neither a scholar nor an accomplished meditator. Anyhow, he had already received Dzogpa Chenpo teachings and had practiced them after completion of his common practices and preliminaries. But when he met Chatralwa it was disappointing for him. It is not because he wasn't doing well with his Dzogpa Chenpo meditation, but that he wasn't even ready to start it.

On that day, one of the most important days of his life, Kyali Loli went to see Chatralwa. Loli was a very courageous person and nothing would intimidate him. So Loli explained his practice, especially concerning his Dzogpa Chenpo experiences, and he requested instructions and clarifications. Chatralwa, without making any remarks about Loli's presentation, said:
"You should first try to say with devotion the "name prayer" of Amitabha Buddha I00 times a day, then increase it to 200, and so on. One day there might be a time when whatever you are doing, you will always be united with the expression of the ''name'' of the Buddha and the feeling of the presence of the Buddha. If that happens, when you die, you will die with the expression and feelings of the Buddha Mind presence of the Buddha. Then, because of your merits and the blessings of the Buddha, perceptions will manifest as the Buddha-field, and your future will be in peace and happiness. Then you will be equipped to serve others".

Then he wrote down a few lines, a quotation from a sutra which reveals the merits and benefits of the ''recitation of the name of Amitabha Buddha.'' Kyali Loli was disappointed because he didn't get any Dzogpa Chenpo teachings, and it broke his proud heart. But, now thinking back, I can understand how these teachings were perfect for him, and how it will be beneficial if he or anybody uses those instructions. It is important for the teacher to be fair, frank, certain, and clear, and for the disciple to be realistic, careful, tolorant, and open, as a line says:
''Having the Dzogpa Chenpo as teachings is not enough, The person needs to become Dzogpa Chenpo.''

Tulku Thondup - The practice of Dzogchen of Longchen Rabjam

[Berry]

No, I am saying that buddhafields are not something outside you.

Indeed. _/|\_

[Malcolm]

Basically, even the worst Dzogchen practitioner is guaranteed birth in the four natural nirmanakāya buddhafields, 125 human years in each, at the end of which time (500 hundred human years), one will attain full buddhahood in the Amoghasiddhi's buddhafield. This is much better than the endless millions of years one needs to spend in Amitabha's buddhafield in order to attain full buddhahood.

I guess that depends on your definition of the worst Dzogchen practitioner. Apparently, receiving Dzogchen teachings and praticing them to the best of your abilities does not necessarily make you a Dzogchen practitioner albeit ofthe worst kind.

A couple of days before we left, Khenpo arranged for his brother, Kyali Loli, to have an interview with the Chatralwa. Loli was neither a scholar nor an accomplished meditator. Anyhow, he had already received Dzogpa Chenpo teachings and had practiced them after completion of his common practices and preliminaries. But when he met Chatralwa it was disappointing for him. It is not because he wasn't doing well with his Dzogpa Chenpo meditation, but that he wasn't even ready to start it.

On that day, one of the most important days of his life, Kyali Loli went to see Chatralwa. Loli was a very courageous person and nothing would intimidate him. So Loli explained his practice, especially concerning his Dzogpa Chenpo experiences, and he requested instructions and clarifications. Chatralwa, without making any remarks about Loli's presentation, said:
"You should first try to say with devotion the "name prayer" of Amitabha Buddha I00 times a day, then increase it to 200, and so on. One day there might be a time when whatever you are doing, you will always be united with the expression of the ''name'' of the Buddha and the feeling of the presence of the Buddha. If that happens, when you die, you will die with the expression and feelings of the Buddha Mind presence of the Buddha. Then, because of your merits and the blessings of the Buddha, perceptions will manifest as the Buddha-field, and your future will be in peace and happiness. Then you will be equipped to serve others".

Then he wrote down a few lines, a quotation from a sutra which reveals the merits and benefits of the ''recitation of the name of Amitabha Buddha.'' Kyali Loli was disappointed because he didn't get any Dzogpa Chenpo teachings, and it broke his proud heart. But, now thinking back, I can understand how these teachings were perfect for him, and how it will be beneficial if he or anybody uses those instructions. It is important for the teacher to be fair, frank, certain, and clear, and for the disciple to be realistic, careful, tolorant, and open, as a line says:
''Having the Dzogpa Chenpo as teachings is not enough, The person needs to become Dzogpa Chenpo.''

Tulku Thondup - The practice of Dzogchen of Longchen Rabjam

When an interested student does not understand the teachings of Dzogchen, this is the fault of the teacher. On the other hand, it is said very clearly that even someone who merely has devotion to Dzogchen will certainly be liberated within three lifetimes. So I wouldn't worry about Kyali Loli very much.

[Johnny Dangerous]

This conversation is uncannily similar to debates I've over the relative merits of different superheros.

[Motova]

One could not purify a buddhafield "better" than Amitabha's per se, but since buddhafields do not exist apart from one's own state, one ought not worry about it.

Are you saying that all Buddhas have the potential to manifest as Amitabha?

No, I am saying that buddhafields are not something outside you.

That's disappointing... I wanted to make a kick ass pure land.

[Dan74]

This conversation is uncannily similar to debates I've over the relative merits of different superheros.

Go Aquaman!

[PadmaVonSamba]

There is nothing outside of your own mind keeping you from establishing a pure land right now.
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