Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

[Malcolm]

So, to be clear, the party line is that every being who has ever been liberated has realized the Dzogchen view (which we could say = Prajñāpāramitā = Mahāmudrā, except in manner of presentation and practice; same result, except for the varieties of rainbow body)? And this regardless of the level of teachings attributed to them in the literature? So, if they did not teach that view, it was not that they did not realize it but that there was not yet a suitable place, retinue, and occasion?

No. Every liberated person has realized the absence of self, i.e., emptiness, and in so doing, has ceased being under control of afflictions. Degrees of liberation are determined by remainder of afflictive obscuration one must eradicate.

Dzogchen is simply one path among many to accomplish this aim. As the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:

If someone does not dwell in words and does not dwell in names,
that is Prajñāpāramitā,
the transcendent state of buddhahood itself;
it is obtained with wisdom
and is liberated from all affliction.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Even telling them to focus on an activity deity such as Jambhala is of no benefit, since these activity deities are not complete paths. Only bodhisattvas like Mañujuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on will function in this way for ordinary people who have no regular yidam practice.

If they have “the ring of faith” for the hook of compassion to latch onto that is.

[Malcolm]

Even telling them to focus on an activity deity such as Jambhala is of no benefit, since these activity deities are not complete paths. Only bodhisattvas like Mañujuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on will function in this way for ordinary people who have no regular yidam practice.

If they have “the ring of faith” for the hook of compassion to latch onto that is.

Yes, correct.

[Motova]

What about phowa?

That's only going to a pure land, that is not being liberated.

Kevin

Not the same thing, but close enough.

[Temicco]

The reason why the Tibetan tradition refers to practitioners of Buddhadharma as “insiders” is that there is no theory of salvation by an external savior in Buddhadharma.

Whoa, where did you learn this from?

[emaho]

What about phowa?

That's only going to a pure land, that is not being liberated.

Yes, but the main reason you want to go to a pure land is not that it's some kind of spiritual Disneyland where you can enjoy yourself, it's because that's where you'll reach enlightenment.

[Virgo]

What about phowa?

That's only going to a pure land, that is not being liberated.

Kevin

Not the same thing, but close enough.

One is a paradise, the other, active buddhahood.

Kevin...

[Malcolm]

The reason why the Tibetan tradition refers to practitioners of Buddhadharma as “insiders” is that there is no theory of salvation by an external savior in Buddhadharma.

Whoa, where did you learn this from?

HH Sakya Trichen, HH Dalai Lama and many others.

[Malcolm]

What about phowa?

That's only going to a pure land, that is not being liberated.

Yes, but the main reason you want to go to a pure land is not that it's some kind of spiritual Disneyland where you can enjoy yourself, it's because that's where you'll reach enlightenment.

Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

[Josef]

The reason why the Tibetan tradition refers to practitioners of Buddhadharma as “insiders” is that there is no theory of salvation by an external savior in Buddhadharma.

Whoa, where did you learn this from?

This is also essentially what the Tibetan word for "Buddhist" implies.

[emaho]

Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

Why would it take millions and millions of years?

[Virgo]

Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

Why would it take millions and millions of years?

Because it is not the human realm, the ideal utopia for Buddhist practice.

Kevin...

[emaho]

Then why would any Buddhist aspire to go there?

[Virgo]

Then why would any Buddhist aspire to go there?

Correct. It is not necessary.

Kevin...

[Malcolm]

Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

Why would it take millions and millions of years?

Have you any idea of how long a day in Sukhavati is in human years? One day in Sukhavati equals one kalpa of the Bhadrakalpa.

In another simple explanation, there are four different lengths of kalpas. A regular kalpa is approximately 16 million years long (16,798,000 years[5]), and a small kalpa is 1000 regular kalpas, or about 16 billion years. Further, a medium kalpa is roughly 320 billion years, the equivalent of 20 small kalpas. A great kalpa is 4 medium kalpas, or around 1.28 trillion years.

[Aryjna]

Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

Why would it take millions and millions of years?

http://www.kagyulibrary.hk/uploads/scri ... /58-en.pdf

This aspiration prayer also has information. According to the translation one kalpa is one day there. It is quadrillions of kalpas if you add up what is described in the text and possibly much more until you reach buddhahood, though it's not clear if that is human or Sukhavati time, and I don't know if there is different information in sutras or other texts.

[amanitamusc]

What if anything would you be aware of?

[Malcolm]

Yes, after millions and millions of human years have gone by.

Why would it take millions and millions of years?

http://www.kagyulibrary.hk/uploads/scri ... /58-en.pdf

This aspiration prayer also has information. According to the translation one kalpa is one day there. It is quadrillions of kalpas if you add up what is described in the text and possibly much more until you reach buddhahood, though it's not clear if that is human or Sukhavati time, and I don't know if there is different information in sutras or other texts.

This is why pure land practice also is neither a short nor a quick path.

[Mantrik]

This is why pure land practice also is neither a short nor a quick path.

Excellent point.

[dzogchungpa]

Not to mention the Spinal Tap factor.

You have to listen to Spinal Tap for a million years?

Kevin...

Well, not quite as bad as that.