Logic is logic, no matter how evolved one is, just as 2+2 = 4 in all math.Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:49 amIf you were evolved a million times more than you are now....would your logic be the same ?
Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
OK...but being that you've evolved millions of years ....your brain would think and reason differently, also you would have more knowledge...about the Universe and the God phenomena...Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:54 amLogic is logic, no matter how evolved one is, just as 2+2 = 4 in all math.Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:49 amIf you were evolved a million times more than you are now....would your logic be the same ?
Cave men had no idea about God....only when mans intelligence evolved did he come to these conclusions....so i can't imagine how man would think about these things in a million years.....
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
It's not as extreme as assigning whatever meaning we want. It's a matter of acquaintance with a broad yet finite spectrum of what people mean by the word in question, in this case "God".
Language is by nature multivalent and open to interpretation. Just like our perceptions; just like almost every situation. There's never only one side.
There's a cognitive urge to simplify, but we don't need to obey it. Isn't some willingness to play with words and concepts more enjoyable than viewing them as having fixed identities? Isn't everything more enjoyable without imputing fixed identities?
There is no single Christian view. The position of dogmatic orthodoxy was arrived at as a bureaucratic compromise after centuries of squabbling, but there was always diversity of view and still is quite a lot. Possibly more than ever. Take two Christians at random: the character, precision, and sophistication of their God-concept will differ drastically. The same way that Buddhists who ostensibly adhere to the same teachings understand and implement them differently.The point is, God, as seen by the Christians, does not exist, as can be proven by very basic logic, and is completely out of place in the dharma.
This plurality of views is complex, and most Christians think their disunity is a problem. As Buddhists, especially Vajrayana Buddhists or Dzogchenpas, it isn't a problem for us. We can just enjoy the wild profusion of religious forms, like any other display, without needing to charge them with value judgments or feel duty-bound to criticize them.
Last edited by Spelare on Fri May 25, 2018 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
That's the thing, we tend to look outside, and think and judge. In Dzogchen, we look inside.Spelare wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:12 am
This plurality of views is complex, and most Christians think their disunity is a problem. As Buddhists, especially Vajrayana Buddhists or Dzogchenpas, it isn't a problem for us. We can just enjoy the wild profusion of religious forms, like any other display, without needing to charge them with value judgments or feel duty-bound to criticize them.
Kevin...
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Are you quite sure? And how did you come to this astonishing conclusion?
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
You're still just within the continuum of sentient beings however. Basically there are only two classes of beings: a) Sentient beings, and b) Buddhas. No matter what kind of sentient being it is, as long as it's a sentient being, it is bound by delusion, and it will inhabit one of the six realms. And there are many different kinds of sentient beings. But a Buddha on the other hand, is not deluded. A Buddha is omniscient. And you can start by studying the teachings of the Buddha in the Hinayana and in the Mahayana to see what he had to say about the concept of god.Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:08 amOK...but being that you've evolved millions of years ....your brain would think and reason differently, also you would have more knowledge...about the Universe and the God phenomena...Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:54 amLogic is logic, no matter how evolved one is, just as 2+2 = 4 in all math.Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 12:49 am
If you were evolved a million times more than you are now....would your logic be the same ?
Cave men had no idea about God....only when mans intelligence evolved did he come to these conclusions....so i can't imagine how man would think about these things in a million years.....
Likewise many other realized masters of Buddhadharma did the same.
And so as Malcolm said, logic is still logic, despite your evolution.
But even then, logic or no logic, just read what the Buddha said, what Dharmakirti said, what Vasubandhu, Yashomitra, Asanga, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Buddhapalita, Bhavaviveka, Shantarakshita, and so on and so forth said. Study Buddhadharma, and see for yourself how the idea of god in its many different varieties is dismantled and refuted thoroughly.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
I figured it out myself before i read Buddhadharma. I don't believe in a Creator God. But i can understand how others do, and i don't like to judge them...because i've been there myself....
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
This thread should have been put down weeks ago.
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
This thread needs to meet it's maker.
Kevin...
Kevin...
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
What happened to Buddhist sanctity?
Kevin...
Kevin...
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Whoa there now..does not believing in god make man more intelligent? No way.Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:44 am Also i'm making a big sweeping generalization just to compare mans intelligence through the span of time....
It just makes man more 'modern'
(I don't mean it in a good way)
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
You mean emaho? They've already met.
That's a pretty disturbingly expressed bit of meta-discussion, even by your exacting standards, Acharya.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
I never said that. Actually I said the opposite. As man evolved , so did his concept of God.Fortyeightvows wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 2:43 am does not believing in god make man more intelligent? No way.
It just makes man more 'modern'
(I don't mean it in a good way)
Cave man probably worshipped the sun, moon & stars (example)
Modern Man has a million gods and religions....and zillions of books on the subject..
Last edited by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha on Fri May 25, 2018 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
At least there's some life in this thread, even if it keeps flowing into weird tangents. The rest of the Dzogchen forum had gone eerily quiet until a few hackles were raised.
If nothing else, it's been spontaneous and at times absurd. Hopefully enjoyable. I'd say "educational," but that tends to put a damper on things.
If nothing else, it's been spontaneous and at times absurd. Hopefully enjoyable. I'd say "educational," but that tends to put a damper on things.
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
But what is the point of "playing with words and concepts"? Does it help in our practice of the Dharma? No, because the concepts in question are, as others have pointed out, explicitly analysed and rejected in countless Dharma texts who describe them as wrong views, and the paths associated with them as wrong paths that do not lead to liberation.Spelare wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 1:12 amIt's not as extreme as assigning whatever meaning we want. It's a matter of acquaintance with a broad yet finite spectrum of what people mean by the word in question, in this case "God".
Language is by nature multivalent and open to interpretation. Just like our perceptions; just like almost every situation. There's never only one side.
There's a cognitive urge to simplify, but we don't need to obey it. Isn't some willingness to play with words and concepts more enjoyable than viewing them as having fixed identities? Isn't everything more enjoyable without imputing fixed identities?
Of course you can decide that (a) you assign different meanings to the words, or (b) you know better, or (c) you'd like to spend this precious human life experimenting to see if perhaps there are alternative undiscovered right paths. But then you are on the path of making-it-up-as-you-go-along, which leads to confusion and worse. This path is a major danger to many modern practitioners, because they think they're clever enough to impose their own understanding on everything.
This analogy is a bit of a stretch, but one could view this a bit like making a tarte tatin. They look remarkably simple - apples, pastry, butter, sugar, time in the oven - how hard can it be. Yet it's annoyingly difficult to get it right. If you want to make a good tarte tatin, you don't start by reading a dozen different recipes, then reading recipes on how to make a regular apple pie, and perhaps then recipes on how to roast a chicken, because that uses an oven too, and then trying to piece them all together into your own interpretation of the dessert. You take one recipe that works, and do it until you get it right. Only then do you - perhaps - start to innovate a little around that recipe. But if your tarte tatin takes an entire lifetime to make, you're not going to be doing very much innovating.
BTW - I agree with the other suggestions above that this thread should be forcefully liberated.
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Yes. As someone who works with adolescents for a living, you might want to relax your rigid concept of pedagogy. Play is integral to learning.
Which we must confirm for ourselves. Until we are genuinely satisfied and convinced, pretending to be so is a barrier to the arising of genuine understanding.No, because the concepts in question are, as others have pointed out, explicitly analysed and rejected in countless Dharma texts who describe them as wrong views, and the paths associated with them as wrong paths that do not lead to liberation.
To borrow what I think must be an old Tibetan cliché, we don't give our "nose-ropes" to anyone, no matter who they are. We practice and explore freely, to the full extent of our capacity and to the best of our knowledge.
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
It sure is! How can you learn to be uncontrived from following a recipe? A skilled cook in training will learn what works by experimenting and tasting, and build their repertoire so that they can play it by ear. They proceed on an empirical basis, observing their own experience carefully. What they certainly don't do is memorize a single recipe book and get frustrated if they encounter a working situation that doesn't conform exactly to what they prepared for. They are able to work with circumstances.
And then there's the classic analogy of gathering knowledge like a bee, going from flower to flower seeking nectar . . .
Which is why our rudder has to be valuing truth more than a) being right or b) conforming to expectations. Truth is determined based on what works, not based on prestige or personalities or the weight of convention. We attend carefully and, if we are entrapping ourselves through proliferating concepts, we simply notice without judgment. I don't think it helps to adopt a grave attitude. We should be serious, in terms of devotion to the path of realization, but not grave.This path is a major danger to many modern practitioners, because they think they're clever enough to impose their own understanding on everything.
Last edited by Spelare on Fri May 25, 2018 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Neither person nor skandha
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.
but unstained wisdom is buddha.
In its knowing, ever serene—
I go for refuge therein.