Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

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Norwegian
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:13 pm

pael wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:03 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:59 am
Breaking samaya can be easy to do.
Fixing samaya is just as easy and a hell of a lot of fun too: You invite around all your yogi and yogini friends and give them loads of alcohol and meat, sing songs, dance and during the party some of them may even get laid.
What if you can't arrange or get to tsogs? Only Dharma Center which arrange tsogs moved far away. Last time I participate was 2 years ago. 35 buddhas? But I can't do it daily. Gelugpas say to do 28 short Vajrasattvas.
You should ask your teacher what to do.

pael
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by pael » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:23 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:13 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:03 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm
Fixing samaya is just as easy and a hell of a lot of fun too: You invite around all your yogi and yogini friends and give them loads of alcohol and meat, sing songs, dance and during the party some of them may even get laid.
What if you can't arrange or get to tsogs? Only Dharma Center which arrange tsogs moved far away. Last time I participate was 2 years ago. 35 buddhas? But I can't do it daily. Gelugpas say to do 28 short Vajrasattvas.
You should ask your teacher what to do.
I asked from him which is best purification practice. He is Nyingma. He gave short mantra. I wonder why it differs from Gelug version. Can I be Gelugpa, if I follow TDR and ChNN?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Norwegian
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:26 pm

pael wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:23 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:13 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:03 pm

What if you can't arrange or get to tsogs? Only Dharma Center which arrange tsogs moved far away. Last time I participate was 2 years ago. 35 buddhas? But I can't do it daily. Gelugpas say to do 28 short Vajrasattvas.
You should ask your teacher what to do.
I asked from him which is best purification practice. He gave short mantra. He is Nyingma. I wonder why it differs from Gelug version. Can I be Gelugpa, if I follow TDR and ChNN?
I don't understand the "problem" you have here. You asked your teacher, he gave you a short mantra. Why don't you just practice that then?

pael
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by pael » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:31 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:26 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:23 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:13 pm

You should ask your teacher what to do.
I asked from him which is best purification practice. He gave short mantra. He is Nyingma. I wonder why it differs from Gelug version. Can I be Gelugpa, if I follow TDR and ChNN?
I don't understand the "problem" you have here. You asked your teacher, he gave you a short mantra. Why don't you just practice that then?
I'm waiting he writes practice text for me. His secretary said that I receive it soon.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Norwegian
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:33 pm

pael wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:31 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:26 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:23 pm

I asked from him which is best purification practice. He gave short mantra. He is Nyingma. I wonder why it differs from Gelug version. Can I be Gelugpa, if I follow TDR and ChNN?
I don't understand the "problem" you have here. You asked your teacher, he gave you a short mantra. Why don't you just practice that then?
I'm waiting he writes practice text for me. His secretary said that I receive it soon.
Great.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm
When was the last time you came across an Arhat? A Buddha?
Maybe we run in different circles.
Anyways, what do arhats and look like?

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Josef
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Josef » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:24 pm

Think about it for a bit.
These threads are filled with advice (and jokes) about how to avoid hell.
Most of the advice is "do this or that elaborate ritual practice and you'll be fine" followed by "what if I cant do that practice?"

This is anxiety provoking religious dogmatism. Rather than concerning ourselves with rituals etc. how about actually working with our minds and purifying them?

Every teacher has implored us to cultivate bodhicitta. Simplify, relax, and actually practice dharma and there will be no hell for anyone.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Sherab Rigdrol
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Sherab Rigdrol » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:27 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:24 pm
Think about it for a bit.
These threads are filled with advice (and jokes) about how to avoid hell.
Most of the advice is "do this or that elaborate ritual practice and you'll be fine" followed by "what if I cant do that practice?"

This is anxiety provoking religious dogmatism. Rather than concerning ourselves with rituals etc. how about actually working with our minds and purifying them?

Every teacher has implored us to cultivate bodhicitta. Simplify, relax, and actually practice dharma and there will be no hell for anyone.
Excellent post!

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Grigoris
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:55 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:03 pm
Maybe we run in different circles.
Yeah, I am sure we do. :roll:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

WeiHan
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:10 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:03 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm
When was the last time you came across an Arhat? A Buddha?
Maybe we run in different circles.
Anyways, what do arhats and look like?
Correct me if I am wrong. Arhat has to be a monk and they do not take rebirth like Bodhisattvas to benefit beings. By this reason, an Arhat has to be someone who practiced alot of meditation in that very life that they attain arhathood. Therefore, the circle for a potential arhat is greatly narrowed. It is unlike Bodhisattvas who can appear as prostitutes, someone who looks lazy and slept all day long, butchers, and even animals etc..It is definitely more difficult to identify a bodhisattva than an arhat.

MatthewAngby
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by MatthewAngby » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:14 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:52 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:59 am
Breaking samaya can be easy to do.
Fixing samaya is just as easy and a hell of a lot of fun too: You invite around all your yogi and yogini friends and give them loads of alcohol and meat, sing songs, dance and during the party some of them may even get laid.

If you want guilt fueled self-mortification and penance then I would recommend Opus Dei.
I wouldn't be so sure of that..we never know who someone really is.
Don't be stupid. When was the last time you came across an Arhat? A Buddha? Somehow I don't think Motova has set up his own sangha by making Vinaya holding monastics leave the dispensation.
I would suppose u are saying tsog. So I was reading it up, very interesting. What is the Vajrayāna view on meat and alcohol. I support these two, but always do not have enough details to support my view. Tell me grigoris.. 🙏🏼

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:48 pm

Tenma

How on earth do you put grass in your head without dying? A brain surgery? Doubt that works.
Menri Phowa - 00.jpg
Menri Phowa - 00.jpg (26.82 KiB) Viewed 738 times
http://kwling.org/menri-phowa-retreat-2 ... ticipants/

As a sign of the mastered Phowa, one can put a stalk of Kusha Grass in the tiny little hole of the head.
The Tsa Kang Technic, causes a little hole at the door of Brahma. Then the Rinpoche put a stalk of grass inside the hole.

Signs of progress are an itching feeling on the top of the head on that spot and some puss comes out.
The hole closes after that very fast.

So the technic of Tsa Kang causes that tiny little hole and never a brain surgery. ;)

During live we have to maintain that Technic of shooting up / Tsa Kang (once a day) , so that when a person dies , he/she can shoot out the Mind, right on out of the heart direction door of Brahma, and can proceed in that way with the illusionary Body.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=21644
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The best meditation is no meditation

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:09 pm

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Tenma
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Tenma » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:15 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:51 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:29 am
the guessing has begun!
Going to Vajra hell is no easy task.

These are the actions which lead to rebirth there:

1. Intentionally killing one's father.
2. Intentionally killing one's mother.
3. Killing an Arhat (enlightened being).
4. Shedding the blood of a Buddha.
5. Creating a schism within the Sangha, the community of Buddhist monks, nuns and laypersons who try to attain enlightenment (eternal happiness).

So we can almost instantly exclude 3,4 and 5.

That leads matricide and patricide. I find it highly unlikely that motova intentionally killed their mother or father recently, so the likelihood that they are going to avici is pretty bloody low, to almost non-existent. Even if they did, it is more likely that they will go to jail, than avici hell, right now.

So I am going with the initial diagnosis of unfounded anxiety and/or Abrahamic guilt habits.
For number 5, does once being part of a group that caused a schism previously lead you to Avici Hell? For example, let's say one joined the group of Devadatta after he caused a schism, then after some time, the person left. Does the person break one of the 5?

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Josef
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Josef » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:20 pm

Tenma wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:15 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:51 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:29 am
the guessing has begun!
Going to Vajra hell is no easy task.

These are the actions which lead to rebirth there:

1. Intentionally killing one's father.
2. Intentionally killing one's mother.
3. Killing an Arhat (enlightened being).
4. Shedding the blood of a Buddha.
5. Creating a schism within the Sangha, the community of Buddhist monks, nuns and laypersons who try to attain enlightenment (eternal happiness).

So we can almost instantly exclude 3,4 and 5.

That leads matricide and patricide. I find it highly unlikely that motova intentionally killed their mother or father recently, so the likelihood that they are going to avici is pretty bloody low, to almost non-existent. Even if they did, it is more likely that they will go to jail, than avici hell, right now.

So I am going with the initial diagnosis of unfounded anxiety and/or Abrahamic guilt habits.
For number 5, does once being part of a group that caused a schism previously lead you to Avici Hell? For example, let's say one joined the group of Devadatta after he caused a schism, then after some time, the person left. Does the person break one of the 5?
No, they didnt create the schism.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Tenma
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by Tenma » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:55 pm

Josef wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:20 pm
Tenma wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:15 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:51 am
Going to Vajra hell is no easy task.

These are the actions which lead to rebirth there:

1. Intentionally killing one's father.
2. Intentionally killing one's mother.
3. Killing an Arhat (enlightened being).
4. Shedding the blood of a Buddha.
5. Creating a schism within the Sangha, the community of Buddhist monks, nuns and laypersons who try to attain enlightenment (eternal happiness).

So we can almost instantly exclude 3,4 and 5.

That leads matricide and patricide. I find it highly unlikely that motova intentionally killed their mother or father recently, so the likelihood that they are going to avici is pretty bloody low, to almost non-existent. Even if they did, it is more likely that they will go to jail, than avici hell, right now.

So I am going with the initial diagnosis of unfounded anxiety and/or Abrahamic guilt habits.
For number 5, does once being part of a group that caused a schism previously lead you to Avici Hell? For example, let's say one joined the group of Devadatta after he caused a schism, then after some time, the person left. Does the person break one of the 5?
No, they didnt create the schism.
Okay good! I wasn't sure if any association with such groups would cause anyone to join them to join Avici.

narraboth
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by narraboth » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:28 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:16 am
narraboth wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:18 am
From what I read, Avīci is not Vajra Hell. Many texts indicate that 'only samaya breakage leads one to Vajra Hell, no other karma would'. Vajra Hell may be kind of Avīci though.
Avici is the lowest hell.
Vajra hell is different from any hell described in sutrayana, including avici, according to <luminous tantra> qouted by Toga Yishi Norbu.

PeterC
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by PeterC » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:37 pm

narraboth wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:28 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:16 am
narraboth wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:18 am
From what I read, Avīci is not Vajra Hell. Many texts indicate that 'only samaya breakage leads one to Vajra Hell, no other karma would'. Vajra Hell may be kind of Avīci though.
Avici is the lowest hell.
Vajra hell is different from any hell described in sutrayana, including avici, according to <luminous tantra> qouted by Toga Yishi Norbu.
That is very interesting - could you share the reference?

smcj
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by smcj » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:27 pm

I can’t source it, but I remember Avivi Hell as being the lowest hell in samsara. It is the ultimate agonies tha can still be experienced dualisticly.

I remember Vajra Hell as bering described as total tantric union with the essence of suffering.

In any case it’s not something you want.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

AlexanderS
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Re: Symptoms Before Vajra Hell

Post by AlexanderS » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:52 pm

Im told by malcolm that suicide also can lead to vajra hell. I dont know what kind of symptoms indicate your going to hell, but ive had visionary experiences of hell beings progressing with detoration of my mental and psychical health, so i definitely feel like im on a downward trajectory.

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