Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

[Kris]

Basically, Dzogchen upadeshas provide a path that centers around self arising bindu. They also put special emphasis on the importance of attaining a rainbow body. Whereas, the other lineages do not. And self arising bindu are known to all lineages, but that is not their path appearance. Their path is visualizations combined with oral instructions about the result.

[kalden yungdrung]

About Mahamudra we / i can say that Dzogchen is Trekchod and Thögal as indivisible.
Take we out Thögal then we do not get Dzogchen anymore but Mahamudra.
ZZNG is teached as Mengagde and then Trekchöd and Thögal are indivisible.

Well i did explain that so many times, is that so difficult to understand ?

Yes. English is not your native language, and you are not very accurate with your terminology, so it is difficult to follow your argument, particularly when you’re talking about these two areas

I have heard that many times here aboard , that if persons do not understand the meaning , they say to non Americans , that their English is bad.

What i have explained as such , can someone who is educated in Dzogchen easy understand , but it seems to be that some have difficulties with that, which i can understand.
Dzogchen is for students with higher level of understanding, i cannot help it that therefore some (with lower level of understandings) cannot pick up the meaning so easy.

[Johnny Dangerous]

About Mahamudra we / i can say that Dzogchen is Trekchod and Thögal as indivisible.
Take we out Thögal then we do not get Dzogchen anymore but Mahamudra.
ZZNG is teached as Mengagde and then Trekchöd and Thögal are indivisible.

Well i did explain that so many times, is that so difficult to understand ?

Yes. English is not your native language, and you are not very accurate with your terminology, so it is difficult to follow your argument, particularly when you’re talking about these two areas

I have heard that many times here aboard , that if persons do not understand the meaning , they say to non Americans , that their English is bad.

What i have explained as such , can someone who is educated inb Dzogchen easy understand , but it seems to be that some have difficulties with that, which i can understand. Dzogchen is for students with higher level of understanding, i cannot help it that therefore some cannot pick up the meaning so easy.

Let's not play the "you're not smart enough to get it" game, and stick to the subject at hand.

I feel like you actually haven't made very clear statements, and I do understand you. It seems that what you perceive of as "Mahamudra" is based primarily on experience with the Kagyu Mahamudra system, which is in fact quite different (doctrinally and functionally) from (for example) what is found in Sakya, and I assume Gelug as well. Additionally, none of what you have posted says anything about fruit being different, and appears to mainly be about method of recognition, which certainly is more gradual in Mahamudra. In fact, it reads to me like the standard criticism of Tantra from a Dzogchen point of view...however, it is a bit of extrapolation to claim that this implies that the fruit is lesser or somehow different, unless you have an actual quote to that effect.

Perhaps a different way to ask the question would be:

Do Bonpo teachers say that Tantra and Dzogchen lead to different fruits? I say this because I assume Tantra in Bon roughly corresponds to Mahamudra. In my limited experiences with Bon tachings (and I do have a little) Dzogchen seems interspersed throughout the various levels of teaching, which would make it even more confusing to say that they lead to different fruits.

So do Bonpo teachers claim that the fruit of Tantra (as practiced in Bon) and Dzogchen are different, and if so, how?

[Johnny Dangerous]

I would prefer we stay away from contentious historical debates and stick to the subject of the thread please, otherwise I can close it.

[kalden yungdrung]

I would prefer we stay away from contentious historical debates and stick to the subject of the thread please

[kalden yungdrung]

I would prefer we stay away from contentious historical debates and stick to the subject of the thread please

an important topic was :

- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.

[WeiHan]

Do Bonpo teachers say that Tantra and Dzogchen lead to different fruits? I say this because I assume Tantra in Bon roughly corresponds to Mahamudra. In my limited experiences with Bon tachings (and I do have a little) Dzogchen seems interspersed throughout the various levels of teaching, which would make it even more confusing to say that they lead to different fruits.

So do Bonpo teachers claim that the fruit of Tantra (as practiced in Bon) and Dzogchen are different, and if so, how?

there is no problem at all with his English language. It is pristine clear, I understood, and that is why i come from a different perspective in the "discussion". But I won't mind hearing him reiterate his point once more.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I would prefer we stay away from contentious historical debates and stick to the subject of the thread please

an important topic was :

- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.

Can you answer my question about Dzogchen vs. Tantra in Bon? If they do not have the same fruit, what is the fruit of Tantra?

[kalden yungdrung]

Johnny Dangerous".

So do Bonpo teachers claim that the fruit of Tantra (as practiced in Bon) and Dzogchen are different, and if so, how?

Thanks for your post.

In the beginning we had the explanation from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and the statement of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.

That was not worked out or further explained, because here we have the meanings / explanation regarding is Mahamudra the same as Dzogchen ?

Well i would answer your question with that what was explained earlier in the statements of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, the the general explanation about the difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen.



Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

So, with the practice of Dzogchen, if we have the capacity, we can realize Buddhahood within a single lifetime. When there are different views and different paths, they lead to different results. This is only logical. If we plant a seed of barley in the earth, it will not produce wheat. So the Buddhahood, which is the Fruit according to Madhyamaka and also according to Mahamudra, will not be the same as the
Fruit according to Dzogchen.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Thanks for your post.

In the beginning we had the explanation from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and the statement of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.

That was not worked out or further explained, because here we have the meanings / explanation regarding is Mahamudra the same as Dzogchen ?

Well i would answer your question with that what was explained earlier in the statements of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, the the general explanation about the difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

So, with the practice of Dzogchen, if we have the capacity, we can realize Buddhahood within a single lifetime. When there are different views and different paths, they lead to different results. This is only logical. If we plant a seed of barley in the earth, it will not produce wheat. So the Buddhahood, which is the Fruit according to Madhyamaka and also according to Mahamudra, will not be the same as the
Fruit according to Dzogchen.

That is not really a complete answer, as it lacks context or detail. Meaning no offense, but applying an intentionally pithy answer to a complex question which begs responses just leads to boring old sectarianism, rather than actually delving into the topic.

So Buddhahood is not the rainbow body in Bon? Does Bon assert that the rainbow body is somehow a higher attainment than anuttara samyaksambodhi, or does it simply claim that the sutra version is not the real thing? If this is definitively stated somewhere in the Bon canon, I assume there is an explanation. It is impossible to tell whether Rinpoche's statement here is a pithy way of telling people not to mix up views of different levels of teaching, or whether he means it as literally as possible. How his statement actuqally reads is that only Dzogchen offers Buddhahood in one lifetime, and sutra does not...this actually accords with Buddhist Dzogchen actually. So, if Rinpoche means something other than that, I could like the details.

To be lcear..when he says "the fruit" of Dzogchen is Buddhahood in one lifetime, and sutra is not, this corresponds also with Tantra and Dzogchen in Buddhism, which both say the same thing. If he is claiming that in fact sutra (no matter how many lives) cannot lead to the same result, then I would like the details.

Absent a more detailed explanation, the claim that the fruit of Mahamudra is lesser than Dzogchen seems like triumphalism....though I am certainly open to hear a more detailed account of how Bon views it.

[PeterC]

About Mahamudra we / i can say that Dzogchen is Trekchod and Thögal as indivisible.
Take we out Thögal then we do not get Dzogchen anymore but Mahamudra.
ZZNG is teached as Mengagde and then Trekchöd and Thögal are indivisible.

Well i did explain that so many times, is that so difficult to understand ?

Yes. English is not your native language, and you are not very accurate with your terminology, so it is difficult to follow your argument, particularly when you’re talking about these two areas

I have heard that many times here aboard , that if persons do not understand the meaning , they say to non Americans , that their English is bad.

What i have explained as such , can someone who is educated in Dzogchen easy understand , but it seems to be that some have difficulties with that, which i can understand.
Dzogchen is for students with higher level of understanding, i cannot help it that therefore some (with lower level of understandings) cannot pick up the meaning so easy.

That wasn't really a helpful response. You don't know anything about me, and generally, ad hominem attacks are not a good discussion technique. I'm not American and most of my day is spent speaking languages other than English. You also have no idea as to what I've studied or my level of understanding, nor is it particularly relevant here.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

So, with the practice of Dzogchen, if we have the capacity, we can realize Buddhahood within a single lifetime. When there are different views and different paths, they lead to different results. This is only logical. If we plant a seed of barley in the earth, it will not produce wheat. So the Buddhahood, which is the Fruit according to Madhyamaka and also according to Mahamudra, will not be the same as the
Fruit according to Dzogchen.

With all due respect, Buddha Nature is not manufactured by practice. Practice creates the circumstances and opportunity for Buddha Nature to manifest. But it is not a product. (Uttaratantra ch 4)

So this sounds really weird to me.

[kalden yungdrung]

Thanks for your post.

In the beginning we had the explanation from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and the statement of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.

That was not worked out or further explained, because here we have the meanings / explanation regarding is Mahamudra the same as Dzogchen ?

Well i would answer your question with that what was explained earlier in the statements of Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, the the general explanation about the difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

So, with the practice of Dzogchen, if we have the capacity, we can realize Buddhahood within a single lifetime. When there are different views and different paths, they lead to different results. This is only logical. If we plant a seed of barley in the earth, it will not produce wheat. So the Buddhahood, which is the Fruit according to Madhyamaka and also according to Mahamudra, will not be the same as the
Fruit according to Dzogchen.

That is not really a complete answer, as it lacks context or detail. Meaning no offense, but applying an intentionally pithy answer to a complex question which begs responses just leads to boring old sectarianism, rather than actually delving into the topic.

So Buddhahood is not the rainbow body in Bon? Does Bon assert that the rainbow body is somehow a higher attainment than anuttara samyaksambodhi, or does it simply claim that the sutra version is not the real thing? If this is definitively stated somewhere in the Bon canon, I assume there is an explanation.

Absent a more detailed explanation, it just seems like triumphalism....though I am certainly open to hear a more detailed account.

Rainbow Body is Buddha hood. That is clear to Dzogchenpas.
Buddha hood = Buddhahood there would be no difference.

Guess that the difference of the fruit can be found in the different Rainbow Bodies.
According the Path we have then different fruits.

It is not so easy to explain these secrets (TOS). But i have heard and read that according Tantra and the Great Seal there would be different rainbow Bodies possible.

The undermentioned Rainbow Bodies go according the realisation and here we get the differences.
Light Bodies (Higher Tantras) and Rainbow bodies seems to be also different used.

The 4 Rainbow Bodies:

the body of the great transfer synonymous with the youthful vase body
the great rainbow body
the small rainbow body
the body of the small transfer

[Sādhaka]

.

[kalden yungdrung]

Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

So, with the practice of Dzogchen, if we have the capacity, we can realize Buddhahood within a single lifetime. When there are different views and different paths, they lead to different results. This is only logical. If we plant a seed of barley in the earth, it will not produce wheat. So the Buddhahood, which is the Fruit according to Madhyamaka and also according to Mahamudra, will not be the same as the
Fruit according to Dzogchen.

With all due respect, Buddha Nature is not manufactured by practice. Practice creates the circumstances and opportunity for Buddha Nature to manifest. But it is not a product. (Uttaratantra ch 4)

So this sounds really weird to me.

The result in Dzogchen are the Rainbow Bodies, which are realised due to realisations, according the practise of Mahamudra , Tantra and Dzogchen, with their related methods to come to certain realisations.

If we can take the Rainbow Bodies as the fruit, then we can have different Rainbow Bodies according the Path like Tantra, Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

[kalden yungdrung]

Yes. English is not your native language, and you are not very accurate with your terminology, so it is difficult to follow your argument, particularly when you’re talking about these two areas

I have heard that many times here aboard , that if persons do not understand the meaning , they say to non Americans , that their English is bad.

What i have explained as such , can someone who is educated in Dzogchen easy understand , but it seems to be that some have difficulties with that, which i can understand.
Dzogchen is for students with higher level of understanding, i cannot help it that therefore some (with lower level of understandings) cannot pick up the meaning so easy.

That wasn't really a helpful response. You don't know anything about me, and generally, ad hominem attacks are not a good discussion technique. I'm not American and most of my day is spent speaking languages other than English. You also have no idea as to what I've studied or my level of understanding, nor is it particularly relevant here.

Sorry i am used to that answer about the bad English which is boring me enormous.
Some can understand the same statements perfect and others do not.
Therefore i was very clear with Lopon Tenzin Namdaks explanations, what can be investigated .
If this is not clear than i must be the cause ?

Your level of understanding is important to understand what others mean.
Again others "understood" better said know my message to some degree, but some do not, that is the reality.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

So, with the practice of Dzogchen, if we have the capacity, we can realize Buddhahood within a single lifetime. When there are different views and different paths, they lead to different results. This is only logical. If we plant a seed of barley in the earth, it will not produce wheat. So the Buddhahood, which is the Fruit according to Madhyamaka and also according to Mahamudra, will not be the same as the
Fruit according to Dzogchen.

With all due respect, Buddha Nature is not manufactured by practice. Practice creates the circumstances and opportunity for Buddha Nature to manifest. But it is not a product. (Uttaratantra ch 4)

So this sounds really weird to me.

The result in Dzogchen are the Rainbow Bodies, which are realised due to realisations, according the practise of Mahamudra , Tantra and Dzogchen, with their related methods to come to certain realisations.

If we can take the Rainbow Bodies as the fruit, then we can have different Rainbow Bodies according the Path like Tantra, Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Can you point me to a canonical source that Bon teaches different rainbow bodies? Or at least, something which states that Rinpoche means what you say he means, and not what his statement appears to mean to me. As mentioned, the earlier statement by Yongdzin Rinpoche appeared to be referring to "different fruit" as simply meaning that Dzogchenpa can attain in one lifetime, whereas sutra practitioners cannot. If he means something else I would like further details from Bon sources.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I have heard that many times here aboard , that if persons do not understand the meaning , they say to non Americans , that their English is bad.

What i have explained as such , can someone who is educated in Dzogchen easy understand , but it seems to be that some have difficulties with that, which i can understand.
Dzogchen is for students with higher level of understanding, i cannot help it that therefore some (with lower level of understandings) cannot pick up the meaning so easy.

That wasn't really a helpful response. You don't know anything about me, and generally, ad hominem attacks are not a good discussion technique. I'm not American and most of my day is spent speaking languages other than English. You also have no idea as to what I've studied or my level of understanding, nor is it particularly relevant here.

Sorry i am used to that answer about the bad English which is boring me enormous.
Some can understand the same statements perfect and others do not.
Therefore i was very clear with Lopon Tenzin Namdaks explanations, what can be investigated .
If this is not clear than i must be the cause ?

Your level of understanding is important to understand what others mean.
Again others "understood" better said know my message to some degree, but some do not, that is the reality.

Once again i'm going to ask that we not put down other people's level of understanding, if people are not communicating well that is fine, but the ad-homs and implications about someone else's understanding are not.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche:

So, with the practice of Dzogchen, if we have the capacity, we can realize Buddhahood within a single lifetime. When there are different views and different paths, they lead to different results. This is only logical. If we plant a seed of barley in the earth, it will not produce wheat. So the Buddhahood, which is the Fruit according to Madhyamaka and also according to Mahamudra, will not be the same as the
Fruit according to Dzogchen.

With all due respect, Buddha Nature is not manufactured by practice. Practice creates the circumstances and opportunity for Buddha Nature to manifest. But it is not a product. (Uttaratantra ch 4)

So this sounds really weird to me.

The result in Dzogchen are the Rainbow Bodies, which are realised due to realisations, according the practise of Mahamudra , Tantra and Dzogchen, with their related methods to come to certain realisations.

If we can take the Rainbow Bodies as the fruit, then we can have different Rainbow Bodies according the Path like Tantra, Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Suppose you have a cloudy day. If then you blow the clouds away the sun will shine. Whatever you did to make the clouds go away did not manufacture the sunlight.

Suppose then the sunlight dries up a puddle (rainbow body). You still cannot say that the puddle drying up is a product of the action of removing the clouds. It may be an indirect consequence, but it isn’t a product of the action.

Anyway I’m just not used to that presentation. I’m sure your rinpoche is well qualified.

[kalden yungdrung]

That wasn't really a helpful response. You don't know anything about me, and generally, ad hominem attacks are not a good discussion technique. I'm not American and most of my day is spent speaking languages other than English. You also have no idea as to what I've studied or my level of understanding, nor is it particularly relevant here.

Sorry i am used to that answer about the bad English which is boring me enormous.
Some can understand the same statements perfect and others do not.
Therefore i was very clear with Lopon Tenzin Namdaks explanations, what can be investigated .
If this is not clear than i must be the cause ?

Your level of understanding is important to understand what others mean.
Again others "understood" better said know my message to some degree, but some do not, that is the reality.

Once again i'm going to ask that we not put down other people's level of understanding, if people are not communicating well that is fine, but the ad-homs and implications about someone else's understanding are not.

I do not put others level of understanding down or persons that is NOT my intention, only point to the misunderstanding about my statements which is not so the "bad" English. So what is left that will it be, we use words for that.