https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge_5424997
Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
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Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
He claims to be leading retreats and starting a local sangha.florin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:30 amhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge_5424997
Does anyone know his name and lineage?
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Well if there are I haven't met them M.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
The honest answer is..I now find it hard to separate out the process before, and after, DI.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
HH Chetsang Rinpocheamanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:22 amWho stamped your certificate?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book. I have no “teaching venture” by the way. No desire to endure the headaches. But I’ll add I’m just doing what the late Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche asked me to do, which is talk about preliminaries. YMMV. Also preliminaries are a pretty general concept. Rushen are also arguably preliminaries as well as anything for purification and accumulation which CHNN teaches many.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 amI think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am The important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Right, it is also an independent yāna which can be practiced by itself.TharpaChodron wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:41 amI'm not saying it's prelims specifically, but as you mentioned the Buddhist teachings are somewhat inseparable from Dzogchen.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:32 amThe issue is not prelims. .TharpaChodron wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:16 am My teacher said in Europe there are teachers who may give Dzogchen teachings without any Buddhist prerequisites, but in our lineage (Nyingma) "where the breath of Dakinis is still warm", we believe in practicing the preliminaries, i.e. Ngondro, first. That's what I follow. He also said any intellectual confusion will be resolved through practice.
Sounds to me like some of Wibur's issues with Buddhadharma are a result of not entirely understanding dharma. Many of us have been there, too. The solution is not in silencing or ignoring our minds' confusion, but continuing to delve into it. I've personally found the more I investigated, the more Buddhist teaching rang true. The fact that the result has such profound veracity kind of validates the path, I gather?
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
As far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:04 pm
Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book.
''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''
https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I never contradicted this. I just said they’re worthy of mention, worth a look over if one has forgotten. No where does CHNN ever say things are permanent, emotions are wonderful, reality is concrete, you can forsake sentient beings.Mantrik wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pmAs far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:04 pm
Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book.
''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''
https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
You listed 'important preliminaries' in one post and then subsequently quoted yourself and said 'he gives this advice'.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:50 pmI never contradicted this. I just said they’re worthy of mention, worth a look over if one has forgotten. No where does CHNN ever say things are permanent, emotions are wonderful, reality is concrete, you can forsake sentient beings.Mantrik wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pmAs far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:04 pm
Well he gives this advice. The Precious Vase. The Tun book.
''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''
https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
I think we may be differing over what a 'preliminary' is. To me, there are no preliminaries necessary for DI. Others here have a very different view from their Gurus, which is fine, but you seemed to be adding ChNN to the list of those who wanted 'preliminaries' before DI, or did I misinterpret ? I often do!
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
That depends how one understands suffering. Buddhist view of suffering is called a noble truth, as it is fist seen in the relinquishment of its opposite; the stress of self-grasping. If you think about when that tent was torn away, how spacious and natural that felt. Then contrast that with the discursive, self-grasping mind; therein is suffering - otherwise known as the process of becoming.Widur wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:34 pm it seems that everything conditioned is perpetually justified just as it is. Everything, from the horrors, to the wonders, from the sorrows to the ecstasies, from the coarse to the fine grained, seems to be precisely where they are meant to be. They cannot be any other way.
This seems to be to be discordant with the buddhist view of suffering etc.
Buddhism, at its deepest level, is the essence of truth without obscuration: including religious doctrine, ontology, metaphysics, belief etc. Everything Buddha taught was to get his followers there - the raft is abandoned when the river is crossed.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
You misinterpret. There is no “you must do.” It is funny folks think preliminaries is a bad word. I say it’s good to reflect on impermanence. Even it is important. Harrumphing and guffawing ensues. lol.Mantrik wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:56 pmYou listed 'important preliminaries' in one post and then subsequently quoted yourself and said 'he gives this advice'.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:50 pmI never contradicted this. I just said they’re worthy of mention, worth a look over if one has forgotten. No where does CHNN ever say things are permanent, emotions are wonderful, reality is concrete, you can forsake sentient beings.Mantrik wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:42 pm
As far as I know he teaches in accordance with Garab Dorje - that DI comes first, THEN other practices for the removal of doubt etc.
''We do these kinds of practices to be 100% sure of our real nature. ''
https://dzogchentoronto.wordpress.com/2 ... tatements/
I think we may be differing over what a 'preliminary' is. To me, there are no preliminaries necessary for DI. Others here have a very different view from their Gurus, which is fine, but you seemed to be adding ChNN to the list of those who wanted 'preliminaries' before DI, or did I misinterpret ? I often do!
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Well my teacher, Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche, gives DI, fourth empowerment, preliminaries, sadhana, you name it.
Actually, come to think of it, he is a big fan of preliminaries and supporting practices for the realisation of Dzogchen.
Actually, come to think of it, he is a big fan of preliminaries and supporting practices for the realisation of Dzogchen.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
They are usually a preliminary to main practice in a Sadhana. If one can maintain the “state of guru yoga” throughout the day great. I think for most of us at some point reviewing the basics is a good idea from time to time. Or like if you’re going to explain buddhism to somebody new probably saying you are directly introduced to your nature and then you remain without doubt in self liberation maybe could be a little confusing. By the way I don’t dispute Dzogchen is a distinct path. I might even take this idea farther than most. It’s really rare to find somebody who’s interested in that.Aryjna wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:21 pm I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.
Last edited by Natan on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Yes, that's what I was failing to describe very well.Aryjna wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:21 pm I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
When I received the lung for "Buddhahood Without Meditation" from LOTR it came with a pledge (samaya) to do 1,200,000 Vajra Guru mantra. So... It seems that preliminaries come even for reading texts, if the teacher believes that it is important.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:26 pmThey are usually a preliminary to main practice in a Sadhana.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
ChNNR has taught on all these points, so from my side I don't see any contradiction.amanitamusc wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 amI think i will stick with ChNNR's advice thanks.Good luck on you teaching venture.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:06 am The important preliminaries are refuge, bodhichitta, contemplation of death & impermanence, vow of virtuous conduct, matbe nonconceptual samadhi, maybe the 7 branch prayer. If a Dzogchen practitioner has forgotten about these points: prob good to look them over.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
And I quote:florin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:30 amhttps://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge_5424997
"...I will try to get back to you personally, especially to anyone who has made significant progress with the tantrayana heat-yoga/bliss-based practices I partially and somewhat cryptically divulged a while back."
This is red flag for me (personally). Plus the use of the pseudonym. Plus his seeming unwillingness to divulge where his sangha is actually located (apart from some vague geographical references). He is way too vague in order for me to trust in him to give me DI.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Thoughts on Dzogchen without buddhism?
Very well put Aryjna.Mantrik wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:36 pmYes, that's what I was failing to describe very well.Aryjna wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:21 pm I think the confusion is that some think they are called preliminaries because they are preliminary to DI. But many if not most teachers give DI and the 'preliminaries' are practiced after that. They are preliminaries to a main practice such as the two stages or certain more advanced Dzogchen practices, not to DI.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.