Dharmapalas and Consorts

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Mantrik
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Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am

Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
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Vasana
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am

Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:50 am

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
I think people are savvy enough not to reveal any practice details and just answer a simple question.

If it seems not, we invented Tantra Talk for questions best answered in private, so Mods can move it there.
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:38 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:50 am
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
I think people are savvy enough not to reveal any practice details and just answer a simple question.

If it seems not, we invented Tantra Talk for questions best answered in private, so Mods can move it there.
On issues that can be misconstrued by those unfamiliar with the subject matter and of secret-mantra in general, it's best to err on the side of caution since this is a public forum and people may form or have their wrong views reinforced whether intentionally or not. This can make the possibility of meeting and trusting these vehicles even slimmer which should be avoided. I think this forum overall has a bit of a heavy issue for for speaking about things we shouldn't be, however simple they may seem to us.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:48 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:38 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:50 am
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
I think people are savvy enough not to reveal any practice details and just answer a simple question.

If it seems not, we invented Tantra Talk for questions best answered in private, so Mods can move it there.
On issues that can be misconstrued by those unfamiliar with the subject matter and of secret-mantra in general, it's best to err on the side of caution since this is a public forum and people may form or have their wrong views reinforced whether intentionally or not. This can make the possibility of meeting and trusting these vehicles even slimmer which should be avoided. I think this forum overall has a bit of a heavy issue for for speaking about things we shouldn't be, however simple they may seem to us.
Maybe, and I know you've raised this objection before, but there are many threads here including discussions about Dharmapalas and by and large they don't go into detail. One potential benefit is that some may realise that what they have been told about their pet Gyalpo is very wrong........a good many of them read DW, and even post here.
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by heart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:48 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
Yes, pretty common and no I don't think it indicate a level of enlightenment because for example Lha Chenpo is almost always depicted with his consort.

https://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=559

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:37 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:48 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
Yes, pretty common and no I don't think it indicate a level of enlightenment because for example Lha Chenpo is almost always depicted with his consort.

https://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=559

/magnus
Thanks. :)
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Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.
what are you doing

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Josef » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
Kye ma!
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Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:51 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
Yes, the consorts are Rakshasi and also invoked.

I'd never argue with a Mamo. It wouldn't end well.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by heart » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by conebeckham » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm

In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


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Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
Thanks. :)
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists? :)

Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:13 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
Thanks. :)
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists? :)

Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
Maning here means nondual, not neuter.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:13 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
Thanks. :)
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists? :)

Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
Maning here means nondual, not neuter.
Indeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?

ON p. 128 of Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja, ChNN calls him 'Neuter Mahakala' but I guess it is down to how we interpret that.
Last edited by Mantrik on Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Indeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?
It is all symbolic dude. You haven't learnt that yet?
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:33 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Indeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?
It is all symbolic dude. You haven't learnt that yet?
No. I'm immensely stupid and understand very little, oh Shasana. It has taken me decades to realise that. ;)

Better tell ChNN that using 'Neuter Mahakala' is a sign of ignorance too.
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pm

Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
heart wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus
afaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.

forgiveme if i'm wrong.
what are you doing

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:04 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
heart wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus
afaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.

forgiveme if i'm wrong.
You are very wide of the mark as far as my own understanding goes. Gyalpo class? Nope - read ChNN's description. His 4 consorts are Rakshasis, invoked, and important.
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Post by heart » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:06 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
heart wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus
afaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.

forgiveme if i'm wrong.
I think you are. Za Rahula is not a Gyalpo. He is a high level Bodhisattva and protector of the Dzogchen teachings.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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