Big messages to deplorables ???

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Wayfarer
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:45 pm

Minobu wrote:Trump did not make america great
Hey, I'm not defending the Trumps. I'm saying they're too stupid to have done it intentionally. They did it by mistake, but it ends up sending the message that 'they don't care', because they're so careless that they make such stupid mistakes. Saying they did it to communicate something indicates planning beyond their capacity.

Having said that, I am henceforth refraining making further comments about Trump. I think every day he's in office is a matter of great regret, that he's an incompetent narcissist who never should have been elected - just so long as that's clear. But the fact that it annoys me so much, in turn annoys the one person who has to live with me, who gets really stressed because I get so stressed about it. So I'm going to refrain from any further comments on this matter on DharmaWheel and only post about what got me here, namely, dharma.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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kirtu
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by kirtu » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:39 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:45 pm
Minobu wrote:Trump did not make america great
Hey, I'm not defending the Trumps. I'm saying they're too stupid to have done it intentionally. They did it by mistake, but it ends up sending the message that 'they don't care', because they're so careless that they make such stupid mistakes. Saying they did it to communicate something indicates planning beyond their capacity.

The question is how can we awaken empathy in the general public, esp. in the bare minority that voted for the current administration?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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如傑優婆塞
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by 如傑優婆塞 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 am

The question is how can we awaken empathy in the general public, esp. in the bare minority that voted for the current administration?
Yes I Do Care, Why Don't You? It's a start..

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Minobu
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:13 am

there are trolls that out themselves for what they really are..

they start out with little tells here and there...cause they want people to see what they are doing...

Then it's like what she did...."Here it is world , this is really what i think...."

they really are in their own little world that is above everyone else..to her everyone else is beneath them...She thinks we are lucky to have them on the planet and they think you should get to know what they really are..cause they think " i'm compassionate" ...it's a sick sort of compasionism they think is righteous...for they are letting the little people in on their big secret.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:09 am

kirtu wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:39 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:45 pm
Minobu wrote:Trump did not make america great
Hey, I'm not defending the Trumps. I'm saying they're too stupid to have done it intentionally. They did it by mistake, but it ends up sending the message that 'they don't care', because they're so careless that they make such stupid mistakes. Saying they did it to communicate something indicates planning beyond their capacity.

The question is how can we awaken empathy in the general public, esp. in the bare minority that voted for the current administration?

Kirt
WIth great difficulty, I imagine. But one way to start might be to stop the hysterical attacks on Trump. It is causing the ‘Trump voters’ to draw their wagons in a circle and defend their hero. NYT today says that support for Trump amongst Republican voters is at all-time highs, and the perception in the so-called ‘right wing media’ is that he is indeed victim of a conspiracy by ‘the liberals’. So long as it’s a pitched battle then both sides are going to dig in, the polarisation will continue to increase, and the likelihood of Trump getting a second term will increase. Mind you I don’t think for a minute that this is due to any cleverness on Trump’s part; it’s not a conscious strategy on his part, it’s more that the same dynamics that led to his being elected [which he never expected to be] are still driving events.

Anyway I don’t even have a dog in the fight, being in Australia, apart from general disappointment at ‘how did it come to this?’ We all desperately hope that something will come along to derail the Trump juggernaut but at this time the prospect looks remote. So I for one am going to try the new practice of totally ignoring Trump and ceasing from ventilating my angst about it on online forums, starting now.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:17 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:09 am
But one way to start might be to stop the hysterical attacks on Trump.
Attacks on Trump are justified. The man is a fascist and he is systematically destroying the US.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Rick » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:17 pm
Attacks on Trump are justified. The man is a fascist and he is systematically destroying the US.
And his approval rating is up to 90% among Republicans ... despite the UN just having said that the separation of immigrant families is an illegal human-rights violation that might amount to torture.

Wayfarer's right: Republicans will continue to dig in their heels when Trump is attacked (no matter how justified/sane/humane the attack).
Malcolm's right: Dude is a catastrophically dangerous Psychopath-King and MUST be attacked.

The question is: How do you dismantle Trumpism without triggering a reflexive Republican heel dig-in?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Rick » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:42 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:09 am
Anyway I don’t even have a dog in the fight, being in Australia,
Just wait ... Trump's megalomaniacal shadow knows no geophysical bounds.
apart from general disappointment at ‘how did it come to this?’
The soil was right (though most of us didn't know) and then the perfect <Russia/Comey/Assange-assisted> storm hit.
We all desperately hope that something will come along to derail the Trump juggernaut but at this time the prospect looks remote. So I for one am going to try the new practice of totally ignoring Trump and ceasing from ventilating my angst about it on online forums, starting now.
Good for you! (But sad for me ... I always like your reasoned rants.) Enjoy your vacation!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by sherabpa » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:55 pm

wrote: The question is: How do you dismantle Trumpism without triggering a reflexive Republican heel dig-in?
You take seriously the concerns of the Trump base that led them to vote for him in the first place, which are primarily economic. You stop calling them morons, stupid, deplorables, and racists, which alienates them further and keeps reconciliation at bay. If you use these insults around dharma centers, communities or forums you are driving many people away from the dharma where they could otherwise find some respite from their pain.

Turn to the Buddhist teachings for help and you will find advice there to look inside rather than outside for the cause of suffering. When I read these anti-Trump posts, its clear many Western Buddhists look more to the Democrat party and Twitter for their most important values than the teachings of Buddha.

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Rick
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Rick » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:23 pm

sherabpa wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:55 pm
wrote: The question is: How do you dismantle Trumpism without triggering a reflexive Republican heel dig-in?
You take seriously the concerns of the Trump base that led them to vote for him in the first place, which are primarily economic.
Are they? Personal identity is a very powerful driver for Trump supporters. Maybe even more than economics?

Interestingly, I just heard coupla days ago that, for the first time ever (afaik) in this country, the white population is shrinking. It won't be too long before the USA is no longer a white majority nation. And that scares c'hell out of your average Trump supporter, right?
You stop calling them morons, stupid, deplorables, and racists, which alienates them further and keeps reconciliation at bay. If you use these insults around dharma centers, communities or forums you are driving many people away from the dharma where they could otherwise find some respite from their pain.
Yes. Keep your eye on the prize (unity or at least detente) and forego the immediate pleasures of name calling and oversimplification into good/evil.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Jeff H
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:26 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:45 pm
I'm saying they're too stupid to have done it intentionally.
...I get so stressed about it. So I'm going to refrain from any further comments on this matter on DharmaWheel and only post about what got me here, namely, dharma.
There are different kinds of intelligence. The fact is Trump is imposing his will and his policies on America, and even though he doesn’t have a popular majority -- yet -- his base and many independents are becoming more supportive of his administration's Machiavellian strategy which doesn’t depend on thoughtful pre-planning. If the opposition tried to use "I really don't care, do u?" against Trump, his side would co-opt it and strengthen their support.

Whether they are voting against their own best interests or not, many people really believe they want the kind of society he is creating. MAGA is about the rights and will of the rich and privileged. Human rights is a Dharma topic -- and the U.S. has quit the UN Human Rights Committee.

It isn’t just America. Anti-democratic Nationalism/Populism is gaining traction around the world. Trump is helping by praising, befriending, and aligning the U.S. with dictators. If we want to preserve the democratic model, this civil-war incivility won’t work. We need a more intelligent conversation, which the Democratic party is not taking a lead on. It doesn't help to call Trump or his followers stupid -- they are powerful because they're getting things done. And what they're getting done is Trump's and his backers' (as opposed to his base's) agenda. This is not accidental.

The NY Times article about his 90% approval among Republicans points out:
In interviews across the country over the last few days, dozens of Trump voters, as well as pollsters and strategists, described something like a bonding experience with the president that happens each time Republicans have to answer a now-familiar question: “How can you possibly still support this man?” Their resilience suggests a level of unity among Republicans that could help mitigate Mr. Trump’s low overall approval ratings and aid his party’s chances of keeping control of the House of Representatives in November.
One reader commented on the article with this:
Charles Michener wrote:This is an important piece to which anti-Trump zealots, as well as those of us just plain disgusted by his behavior, need to give serious attention. We need to understand the hardening Trump support as evidence that on virtually every front (government regulations, immigration, healthcare, trade), Trump is doing exactly what he promised he'd do. He's delivering, which is not something that can be said of most politicians. We need to understand that what he thrives on most is being a lightning rod, setting himself up for attack so he can show his mettle by hitting back. And the relentlessly anti-Trump media (which includes the Times) must recognize certain things about their outrage: 1) moralizing can get tiresome very quickly and boomerang on the moralizer; 2) hurling red-flag words like "racist," "misogynist" and "xenophobe" only reinforces his standing as "straight shooting," "swaggering" and "patriotic;" 3) making his every falsehood and tweet into a headline gives him and his supporters exactly what they want: it keeps him at center stage and obscures what he is actually doing to undermine government and the rule of law; 4) Piling on Trump day after day diverts Democrats and their candidates from putting forth compelling alternatives his policies, including those that would appeal to his base. If there was ever a time to let cooler heads prevail, this is it.
BTW, the article also mentions that those identifying as "Republican" has gone down by 2%, but I'm not sure how significant that is.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

Jeff H
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:17 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:09 am
But one way to start might be to stop the hysterical attacks on Trump.
Attacks on Trump are justified. The man is a fascist and he is systematically destroying the US.
As the old Christian aphorism says, “That’s preaching to the choir.” It may buoy believers’ self-righteousness, but it won’t change any minds.

This is this a little like Tsongkhapa's point about the distinction between syllogistic and consequentialist arguments: You can’t change anyone’s mind by merely asserting as obviously true something they believe is obviously false; Sometimes you have to understand the opponent’s position as expressed and show the internal contradictions.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Rick
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Rick » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:16 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:52 pm
This is this a little like Tsongkhapa's point about the distinction between syllogistic and consequentialist arguments: You can’t change anyone’s mind by merely asserting as obviously true something they believe is obviously false; Sometimes you have to understand the opponent’s position as expressed and show the internal contradictions.
Contradiction is in the realm of true/false. What % of ardent Trump supporters give a hoot about true/false? Or, perhaps more accurately: What % are willing to entertain the notion that what FOX/Trump says is true is NOT true? (Of course the same could be said of anti-Trumpsters and CNN.) Logic ain't gonna go too far in this situation, I fear. (Primal) Emotions trump it. Monsters ... from the ID! (It was on last night.)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Minobu
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:49 pm

Allowing the fall of human rights and the degradation of human dignity to flourish with the aid of a government the size and power of America unchallenged is just inane.

allowing a leader of the free world to sign away on human rights without challenge is morally bereft of anything that is righteous..


This is a whole other level of attacks on human beings by a bully boorish American Administration on the weakest and most vulnerable desperate humans on your soil...

letting it happen is not an option for a Buddhist .
forums and twitter and all social media is a non violent approach for change in society.

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Minobu
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:45 pm

Rick wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:37 pm


The question is: How do you dismantle Trumpism without triggering a reflexive Republican heel dig-in?
with a little hope and prayer maybe well after Trump is long gone .....


for those totally blinded by the propaganda of the Trump administration due to their own racist upbringing , along with indoctrination from a young age into bigotry and a skewed patriotic view....

1) education
2)social reform
3)media based views that enhance a will for the righteous ,the fair and equality for all. ..
4) an in your face systematic government funded barrage of vignettes on all forms of media aimed at education of racism and bigotry....it was done in canada ...
5)the public education system teaching anti racist and showing the wrongs of bigotry from an early age....it was done in canada...

i grew up with this stuff taught in schools and seen on tv...

you think canada had no racism in it?...we did and do have lots of it...but it is challenged with funding by the governments on all levels..



your government needs to be specifically against this stuff and not leave the eye of the beholder to think ...yeah president trump is a white supremisct and loves the KKK...look who he hired..it must mean something...

McLuhan's second best known insight is summarized in the expression "the medium is the message"



itsa a friggin nightmare....i need to step away for a bit ...i feel dirty...

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Karma Dorje » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:18 pm

Just wait for round two when he blames the coming global depression he has "engineered" on the liberal enemies within and Europe.

We are truly at a place where civil war is the least bad option.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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egon
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by egon » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:22 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:18 pm
Just wait for round two when he blames the coming global depression he has "engineered" on the liberal enemies within and Europe.

We are truly at a place where civil war is the least bad option.
Oh really? The least bad option? If that's true, are you going to be the first one who signs up for the revolution? Gonna jump into the army and pause the first precept for a while so that you can go kill your fellow Americans? Not cool, whether hyperbole or not.

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:16 am

In these times of degeneration, you may scold
The unruly people around you, thinking it will benefit them;
Yet, doing this causes negative emotions.
Speak calmly! This is my advice from the heart.

Without any selfish motive, you may tell people you love,
With the intention of helping them, their mistakes;
Yet although what you say is true, (your words) are like a tumor in their heart.
Speak gently! This is my advice from the heart.

-Longchenpa, Advice from the Heart


And as Garchen Rinpoche has said: "To me in this world there are only two types of beings: my benefactors of love and my benefactors of patience. The majority are my benefactors of love; they are very kind and help me. Some try to cause harm and create obstacles; these are my benefactors of patience."

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:31 am

egon wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:22 am
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:18 pm
Just wait for round two when he blames the coming global depression he has "engineered" on the liberal enemies within and Europe.

We are truly at a place where civil war is the least bad option.
Oh really? The least bad option? If that's true, are you going to be the first one who signs up for the revolution? Gonna jump into the army and pause the first precept for a while so that you can go kill your fellow Americans? Not cool, whether hyperbole or not.
My comment is descriptive, not prescriptive. If there is a move to jail or impeach Trump, fully expect that the lunatic fringe that passes for the right wing these days will assume it is a deep state conspiracy to remove Glorious Leader. They are heavily armed, lightly burdened with critical thinking and already identifying "fellow Americans" as the enemy, whether because they belong to the wrong ethnicity or they hold the wrong political beliefs.

In spite of that, impeachment is better than a global war.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Quay
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Re: Big messages to deplorables ???

Post by Quay » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:41 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:20 am
Yes I really do believe that Greg. I think it's cluelessness - that Melania grabbed that jacket without even thinking about what was on it....
They may not know how to run government, be clueless about diplomacy, have no interest in anything but their own interests, but I can assure you the First Lady knows what is on her back at all times.

This is the world of fresh money, aspirational strivers, and fashion. I've been around such people where no matter what goes on in their minds it is always that all externals are in place. She knew what was on her jacket. The question remains what message was she sending and who was the intended recipient.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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