CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

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Grigoris
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:46 pm
Whatever we might think of Ngagpa Chogyam..and he quite clearly occupies the thinking of some people a lot..there has never been any suggestion, not even a whiff, of impropriety. Even from those who would be pleased to see him traduced.
So as long as a self-proclaimed guru does not shag their students they get the "thumbs up" from you?

How very Anglo-Protestant!

You all do realise that lay lama are allowed to have sex right?

You all realise that nowhere in the Buddhist Canons (not even in the conservative/ascetic traditions) does it say that consensual sex is something that a lay person should avoid?

And this idea that a lama has to be able to ride a pregnant female tiger or... in order to manifest unconventional behaviour, talk about unrealistic expectations...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:59 pm

I don't believe I mentioned pregnant tigers.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm
And this idea that a lama has to be able to ride a pregnant female tiger or... in order to manifest unconventional behaviour, talk about unrealistic expectations...

I don't think it would be that hard to ride a pregnant female tiger, honestly. Riding a pregnant male tiger would be something, though.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Mantrik
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm

And this idea that a lama has to be able to ride a pregnant female tiger or... in order to manifest unconventional behaviour, talk about unrealistic expectations...
She isn't pregnant, she is in her first 'heat', her first period and with PMS if you like. Believe me, that changes things!

I wouldn't even talk to one without giving it chocolate at that time.
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pael
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by pael » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:06 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:46 pm
Whatever we might think of Ngagpa Chogyam..and he quite clearly occupies the thinking of some people a lot..there has never been any suggestion, not even a whiff, of impropriety. Even from those who would be pleased to see him traduced.
So as long as a self-proclaimed guru does not shag their students they get the "thumbs up" from you?

How very Anglo-Protestant!

You all do realise that lay lama are allowed to have sex right?

You all realise that nowhere in the Buddhist Canons (not even in the conservative/ascetic traditions) does it say that consensual sex is something that a lay person should avoid?

And this idea that a lama has to be able to ride a pregnant female tiger or... in order to manifest unconventional behaviour, talk about unrealistic expectations...
Were Trungpa lay Buddhist? Doesn't lama need to be monk? Did he do miracles/magic?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm

pael wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:06 pm
Doesn't lama need to be monk?
No.

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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:11 pm

pael wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:46 pm
Whatever we might think of Ngagpa Chogyam..and he quite clearly occupies the thinking of some people a lot..there has never been any suggestion, not even a whiff, of impropriety. Even from those who would be pleased to see him traduced.
So as long as a self-proclaimed guru does not shag their students they get the "thumbs up" from you?

How very Anglo-Protestant!

You all do realise that lay lama are allowed to have sex right?

You all realise that nowhere in the Buddhist Canons (not even in the conservative/ascetic traditions) does it say that consensual sex is something that a lay person should avoid?

And this idea that a lama has to be able to ride a pregnant female tiger or... in order to manifest unconventional behaviour, talk about unrealistic expectations...
Were Trungpa lay Buddhist? Doesn't lama need to be monk? Did he do miracles/magic?
Many Lamas are not monks. Some Lamas are.
Marpa was not a monk. Many Indian Mahasiddhas were not monks. Milarepa, and Guru Rinpoche, were not monks.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Grigoris
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:13 pm

Stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks. It took almost an hour out of my life to clean up all the BS in this thread. I will come down hard on transgressions.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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florin
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by florin » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:19 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:59 pm
I don't believe I mentioned pregnant tigers.

In the example with the tigers the idea is that to ride a pregrant tiger is more difficult (and as a consequence you need more siddhis) as oposed to riding a non-pregnant tiger where you just need to be tottally insane or a completly ordinary person like somebody who works in an office. :techproblem:
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:20 pm

One of the biggest mysteries in this whole thing is why they called the yayo "tabi".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Simon E.
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:21 pm

pael wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:06 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:42 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:46 pm
Whatever we might think of Ngagpa Chogyam..and he quite clearly occupies the thinking of some people a lot..there has never been any suggestion, not even a whiff, of impropriety. Even from those who would be pleased to see him traduced.
So as long as a self-proclaimed guru does not shag their students they get the "thumbs up" from you?

How very Anglo-Protestant!

You all do realise that lay lama are allowed to have sex right?

You all realise that nowhere in the Buddhist Canons (not even in the conservative/ascetic traditions) does it say that consensual sex is something that a lay person should avoid?

And this idea that a lama has to be able to ride a pregnant female tiger or... in order to manifest unconventional behaviour, talk about unrealistic expectations...
Were Trungpa lay Buddhist? Doesn't lama need to be monk? Did he do miracles/magic?
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche had been a monk but left the robe.
Lamas do not have to be monks.
As far as I know no one claims that CTR did 'magic' or performed miracles. Apart from turning a bunch of hippies into serious practitioners before he lost the plot.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by O_156 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:45 pm
It seems to be ascribed sometimes to historical figures whose behaviour is eccentric, or just plain harmful.....but where does it come from?
I always thought “crazy wisdom” was simply a rebranding of “divine madness” concept, which supposedly can be found in different cultures and religious traditions throughout history.

It's an enticing idea, but I tend to be sceptical and cautious about it. I imagine genuine ones (if there are such ones) are few and far between.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm

I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:46 pm

On the 'miracles' front and to put the 'crazy wisdom' claims into perspective, rumours swept Samye -Ling that CTR could be seen levitating down the corridors in the early hours.
I asked him if it was true.

He looked at me over the top of his glasses for a good thirty seconds.

'x (Refuge Name)' he said eventually, 'grow up'.

But it was amazing to see people desperate to believe that it was true.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Tenma » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:52 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:46 pm
On the 'miracles' front and to put the 'crazy wisdom' claims into perspective, rumours swept Samye -Ling that CTR could be seen levitating down the corridors in the early hours.
I asked him if it was true.

He looked at me over the top of his glasses for a good thirty seconds.

'x (Refuge Name)' he said eventually, 'grow up'.

But it was amazing to see people desperate to believe that it was true.
Oh there's a way alright. Get them high on weed, then they'll see him levitate. Simple.

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:56 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:46 pm
On the 'miracles' front and to put the 'crazy wisdom' claims into perspective, rumours swept Samye -Ling that CTR could be seen levitating down the corridors in the early hours.
I asked him if it was true.

He looked at me over the top of his glasses for a good thirty seconds.

'x (Refuge Name)' he said eventually, 'grow up'.

But it was amazing to see people desperate to believe that it was true.
grow up because asking the question was stupid, not because its impossible
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Karma Dorje » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:06 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 pm
I also don't see anybody getting all outraged about the alcohol and drugs, the consumption of which is actually a violation of a Buddhist precept.
I am surprised that you equate the use of intoxicants, which is a matter for an individual to decide, with sexual abuse which causes direct harm to another. The first is simply not a moral issue for me. The second is much more troubling.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: CTR, polygamy, cocaine, etc: Discuss

Post by Norwegian » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:07 pm

It's worth pointing out again, that the term "crazy wisdom" in English, with its Tibetan equivalent term "ye shes chol ba" are both inventions of Chogyam Trungpa. The Tibetan term does not exist in any Tibetan works, nor is it a term that is used by Tibetan teachers in Tibet, either in the past or the present.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama has also pointed out this fact, that it doesn't exist as terminology in the Indo-Tibetan traditions of Vajrayana.

The way I see it, is as a term, it is best used only within the context of Chogyam Trungpa's teachings, and not anywhere else, as there is no context outside of Chogyam Trungpa, to use this term.

Instead what people may be thinking about when they think about "crazy wisdom yogis", are very advanced yogis who deliberately engage in unconventional conduct, which is permitted by their gurus, due to at a minimum having attained the stage of strong heat on the path of application (in a Vajrayana context) or the path of seeing. At that point in time, for such a yogi, engaging in unconventional conduct, will act as fuel to the fire that burns away their afflictions even faster.

But nowhere does this mean they will abuse and hurt sentient beings physically, sexually, or psychologically. Never.

As for wisdom being crazy, this is an oxymoron. Wisdom, or ye shes, is very far away from crazy. If anything is crazy, it is sentient beings, who are led astray by the delusion of dualistic vision 24/7 365.

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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:10 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:19 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:59 pm
I don't believe I mentioned pregnant tigers.

In the example with the tigers the idea is that to ride a pregrant tiger is more difficult (and as a consequence you need more siddhis) as oposed to riding a non-pregnant tiger where you just need to be tottally insane or a completly ordinary person like somebody who works in an office. :techproblem:
She is not pregnant. She is in her first 'heat', first period, wild and lustful etc. Think about it, pregnancy would just slow her down etc.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Norwegian
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Re: Crazy Wisdom

Post by Norwegian » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:12 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:10 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:19 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:59 pm
I don't believe I mentioned pregnant tigers.

In the example with the tigers the idea is that to ride a pregrant tiger is more difficult (and as a consequence you need more siddhis) as oposed to riding a non-pregnant tiger where you just need to be tottally insane or a completly ordinary person like somebody who works in an office. :techproblem:
She is not pregnant. She is in her first 'heat', first period, wild and lustful etc. Think about it, pregnancy would just slow her down etc.
Indeed.

Anybody who has owned or owns a female cat, knows what can happen to a cat in her first heat.

The tiger in question is not pregnant.

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