Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

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Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:54 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:08 pm
yan kong wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:01 pm


Of course. It happens with monastics too, worse.
You did the math?
Screw the math. Molesting young boys is worse than consenting adult women.

It is similar the fagging system in English Public Schools, ala Tom Brown's Schooldays.

There were/are all kinds of systematic problems with the Tibetan monastic system, but I think another thread is needed for that.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:53 pm
florin wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:47 pm
Shocking...

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06 ... blavatsky/
Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.

So even "monks" sometimes treat others like cum dumps. smh
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:37 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:53 pm
florin wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:47 pm
Shocking...

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/06 ... blavatsky/
Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.

So even "monks" sometimes treat others like cum dumps. smh
The habits doesn't makes the monk/nun, but his/her conduct. The same goes for titles, etc.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:39 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:37 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:53 pm
Yes, but a separate issue from scandals in Western Dharma centers. CHNN has often spoke openly about sexual predation that he witnessed at his monastery as a young tulku.

So even "monks" sometimes treat others like cum dumps. smh
The habits doesn't makes the monk/nun, but his/her conduct. The same goes for titles, etc.

Yes, hence the scare quotes.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

PeterC
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:51 am

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:38 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:20 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:08 pm


Screw the math. Molesting young boys is worse than consenting adult women.
We are not talking about consenting adults in this thread. We are talking about sexual abuse. That's a big difference.
We can discuss professional and legal aspects such as consent not being consent with religious leaders, but I've read the reports and I don't fault Mipham R. for thinking they were DTF.
So you believe that osel mukpo is not at fault here?
You think that the reports provide no reason to believe he’s not a qualified guru?
You believe that his actions do not constitute sexual abuse and potentially attempted rape?

Just want to be clear about the position you’re taking.

greenvajrapani
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by greenvajrapani » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:56 am

Instead of the Kapala Council investigating this matter why not have the local Police and their sex crime investigators get involved?

Would not that fall under the title of "Right Action"?

Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:24 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:51 am
You believe that his actions do not constitute sexual abuse and potentially attempted rape?
Mipham's case is not rape. It is sexual misconduct.

Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:28 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:14 pm
So even "monks" sometimes treat others like cum dumps. smh
One cannot dismiss lightly the nonvirtue of one person by invoking the nonvirtue of another.

PeterC
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:28 am

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:24 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:51 am
Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:38 pm


We can discuss professional and legal aspects such as consent not being consent with religious leaders, but I've read the reports and I don't fault Mipham R. for thinking they were DTF.
So you believe that osel mukpo is not at fault here?
You think that the reports provide no reason to believe he’s not a qualified guru?
You believe that his actions do not constitute sexual abuse and potentially attempted rape?

Just want to be clear about the position you’re taking.
Mipham's case is not rape. It is sexual misconduct.
So do you:
1. Consider it not to be sexual abuse of any kind?
2. Believe that the report gives no grounds to consider him unsuitable as a guru?

Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:30 am

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:24 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:51 am
You believe that his actions do not constitute sexual abuse and potentially attempted rape?
Mipham's case is not rape. It is sexual misconduct.
In fact, the possibility that he may have raped a women in Chile was brought up, but for lack of evidence, other than rumors in Shambhala that he was "bad" in Chile, there is no other proof. Rumors do not constitute sufficient grounds for prosecution. However, that there are such rumors in itself troubling.

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Virgo
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Virgo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:33 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:30 am

In fact, the possibility that he may have raped a women in Chile was brought up, but for lack of evidence, other than rumors in Shambhala that he was "bad" in Chile, there is no other proof. Rumors do not constitute sufficient grounds for prosecution. However, that there are such rumors in itself troubling.
He doesn't care. The guy is a "lama". "All lamas do it".

Kevin...

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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:35 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:28 am
So do you:
1. Consider it not to be sexual abuse of any kind?
2. Believe that the report gives no grounds to consider him unsuitable as a guru?
He was abusing his position IMO. Like I said, it seems he had trouble relating to women non-sexually. I can't make a call on "unsuitable as a guru" because a guru is very private and personal-may be unsuitable for you. Publically, he is definitely unsuitable to teach.

There were sexually promiscuous gurus in India and Tibet too. Generally speaking, for a woman, best to stay away (although there may be women who had no problem with their relationship with him). To reiterate, he should not be a public "guru" or teacher in the world of Dharma.
Last edited by Snowbear on Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:56 am, edited 8 times in total.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:45 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:28 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:14 pm
So even "monks" sometimes treat others like cum dumps. smh
One cannot dismiss lightly the nonvirtue of one person by invoking the nonvirtue of another.

Duly noted.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:49 am

Let's not forget Drukpa Kunley.
wrote:He was known for his crazy methods of enlightening other beings, mostly women, which earned him the title "The Saint of 5,000 Women". Among other things, women would seek his blessing in the form of sex. His intention was to show that it is possible to be enlightened, impart enlightenment, and still lead a very healthy sex life. He demonstrated that celibacy was not necessary for being enlightened. In addition, he wanted to expand the range of means by which enlightenment could be imparted, while adding new evolutionary prospects to the overarching tradition. He is credited with introducing the practice of phallus paintings in Bhutan and placing statues of them on rooftops to drive away evil spirits.[2] Because of this power to awaken unenlightened beings, Kunley's penis is referred to as the "Thunderbolt of Flaming Wisdom" and he himself is known as the "fertility saint". For this reason women from all around the world visited his monastery to seek his blessing.[3][4]

Some of his most famous performances include urinating on sacred thankhas, stripping down naked or offering his testicles to a famous Lama. He is one of very few Buddhist teachers to almost always appear in Bhutanese paintings topless. It is known that Drukpa Kunley would not bless anyone who came to seek his guidance and help unless they brought a beautiful woman and a bottle of wine.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:03 am

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:49 am
Let's not forget Drukpa Kunley.
wrote:He was known for his crazy methods of enlightening other beings, mostly women, which earned him the title "The Saint of 5,000 Women". Among other things, women would seek his blessing in the form of sex.

That part kind of reminds me of an amusing story about one of Chokgyur Lingpa's sons, Wangchok Dorje, told by TUR in "Blazing Splendor":
People found Wangchok Dorje incredibly handsome; some even said he had the features of a god and that they had never seen anyone so beautiful. He was quite tall and very strong, with a noble bearing. His hair was very unusual; he wore it long, braided and wrapped around his head. It was described as a "magnetizing tiara" which meant that it had never been cut and that a dakini dwelled in every strand. His hair shone with a dark blue luster and when he washed it, it never tangled, even if he didn't comb it.

Being both the son and the lineage holder of Chokgyur Lingpa, Wangchok Dorje by tradition was supposed to have sons to carry on the family and the lineage. People say he had one hundred lovers. Wherever he went, word went around that girls who wanted a "body connection" - a very physical blessing - with the handsome tulku could just come by to see him. The young women would literally line up, waiting at his quarters each evening.

But Wangchok Dorje was also an accomplished yogi who had reversed the flow of the white essence and, unlike ordinary men, who ejaculate, he never made anyone pregnant. I don't know whether this was good or bad, but that's the way it happened. On the other hand, how often in the old days did you hear of someone who had one hundred girlfriends, yet never made even one of them pregnant?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

haha
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by haha » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:06 am

Some points from Mipham Rinpoche’s commentary on Kalacakra’s Abhisheka Patal. 3rd verse

Those who openly practice the secret samayas make worldly ones disparage the Dharma and individuals [who practice like this] fall into the faults of misusing the secret gate and so forth….

…True students must watch out for being deceived by the lies of such people, as the place of supreme bliss mind will degenerate.

….Even if such people have already been taken as gurus, if they become obstacles to the path to liberation and lest the downfalls of non-faith and so forth occur, they should be abandoned.

….Thus, if there is an available bhikshu vajra-holder, a householder master should not be relied on as the guru of bhikshus and kings of countries.
To know more detail, check yourself in his commentary as the above points can be misinterpreted. But for those who know the context, it would be definitely helpful.
Bhikshus are superior in term of that as they already renounce the Samsara; whereas house-holders need to engage in a lot of household actives as their renunciation is only imagine.

PeterC
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:31 am

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:49 am
Let's not forget Drukpa Kunley.
wrote:He was known for his crazy methods of enlightening other beings, mostly women, which earned him the title "The Saint of 5,000 Women". Among other things, women would seek his blessing in the form of sex. His intention was to show that it is possible to be enlightened, impart enlightenment, and still lead a very healthy sex life. He demonstrated that celibacy was not necessary for being enlightened. In addition, he wanted to expand the range of means by which enlightenment could be imparted, while adding new evolutionary prospects to the overarching tradition. He is credited with introducing the practice of phallus paintings in Bhutan and placing statues of them on rooftops to drive away evil spirits.[2] Because of this power to awaken unenlightened beings, Kunley's penis is referred to as the "Thunderbolt of Flaming Wisdom" and he himself is known as the "fertility saint". For this reason women from all around the world visited his monastery to seek his blessing.[3][4]

Some of his most famous performances include urinating on sacred thankhas, stripping down naked or offering his testicles to a famous Lama. He is one of very few Buddhist teachers to almost always appear in Bhutanese paintings topless. It is known that Drukpa Kunley would not bless anyone who came to seek his guidance and help unless they brought a beautiful woman and a bottle of wine.
Recall Milarepa’s comment on the fox and the lion. He was referring there to living the life of a householder - and saying that he wasn’t up to it. So someone who not only lives as a householder, but also engages in drink/drug-fuelled orgies with disciples, must by implication be of greater capacity than Milarepa.

Obviously there cannot be many of these people. If you meet someone who claims that they can engage in this conduct as a practitioner and a vajra master, you should run away as fast as you can. Perhaps he/she is of that capacity. But it is far, far more likely that they are a charlatan.

So we probably should forget Drukpa Kunley, as we are probably more likely to be abducted by aliens than we are to meet a guru like him. Celebrating his story won’t help us find a qualified guru: it is more likely to lead us to embrace an unqualified guru, with all the attendant dangers.

Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Snowbear » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:38 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:31 am
Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:49 am
Let's not forget Drukpa Kunley.
wrote:He was known for his crazy methods of enlightening other beings, mostly women, which earned him the title "The Saint of 5,000 Women". Among other things, women would seek his blessing in the form of sex. His intention was to show that it is possible to be enlightened, impart enlightenment, and still lead a very healthy sex life. He demonstrated that celibacy was not necessary for being enlightened. In addition, he wanted to expand the range of means by which enlightenment could be imparted, while adding new evolutionary prospects to the overarching tradition. He is credited with introducing the practice of phallus paintings in Bhutan and placing statues of them on rooftops to drive away evil spirits.[2] Because of this power to awaken unenlightened beings, Kunley's penis is referred to as the "Thunderbolt of Flaming Wisdom" and he himself is known as the "fertility saint". For this reason women from all around the world visited his monastery to seek his blessing.[3][4]

Some of his most famous performances include urinating on sacred thankhas, stripping down naked or offering his testicles to a famous Lama. He is one of very few Buddhist teachers to almost always appear in Bhutanese paintings topless. It is known that Drukpa Kunley would not bless anyone who came to seek his guidance and help unless they brought a beautiful woman and a bottle of wine.
Recall Milarepa’s comment on the fox and the lion. He was referring there to living the life of a householder - and saying that he wasn’t up to it. So someone who not only lives as a householder, but also engages in drink/drug-fuelled orgies with disciples, must by implication be of greater capacity than Milarepa.

Obviously there cannot be many of these people. If you meet someone who claims that they can engage in this conduct as a practitioner and a vajra master, you should run away as fast as you can. Perhaps he/she is of that capacity. But it is far, far more likely that they are a charlatan.

So we probably should forget Drukpa Kunley, as we are probably more likely to be abducted by aliens than we are to meet a guru like him. Celebrating his story won’t help us find a qualified guru: it is more likely to lead us to embrace an unqualified guru, with all the attendant dangers.
There actually wasn’t a #MeToo movement back then for displeased/violated women to come out against Kunley.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:55 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:31 am
Recall Milarepa’s comment on the fox and the lion. He was referring there to living the life of a householder - and saying that he wasn’t up to it.

Um, Milarepa may not have been "up to it" but many contemporary well respected lamas seem to be, ChNN for example, so I guess they all have greater capacity than him, right?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:25 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:55 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:31 am
Recall Milarepa’s comment on the fox and the lion. He was referring there to living the life of a householder - and saying that he wasn’t up to it.

Um, Milarepa may not have been "up to it" but many contemporary well respected lamas seem to be, ChNN for example, so I guess they all have greater capacity than him, right?
Yes, perhaps. Not everyone is under the apprehension that Mila achieved complete Buddhahood.

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