Disagreeing with Guru

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Lhasa
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Lhasa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:50 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:16 am


You should also read through the thread on teachers and root gurus

What is the name of the thread on teachers and root gurus? There are 78 pages in the 'root guru' search.

PeterC
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by PeterC » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:43 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:50 pm
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:16 am


You should also read through the thread on teachers and root gurus

What is the name of the thread on teachers and root gurus? There are 78 pages in the 'root guru' search.
It’s a sticky within the Tibetan sub-forum

Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:05 am
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:56 am
How was your search for your guru and did you manage to do so?
Who said I have a guru?
Crazywisdom wrote:I thought the 50 verses on guru devotion spoke of examining for five years.
I remember 15 years.

I don't think 5 years is enough.

For example: I was following one teacher (my Refuge lama) for about 7 years. Then one day I asked if he could impart an empowerment (he is authorised to) and he started to say some stuff about not wanting to form those sorts of links with students, etc... Why would I want a teacher that is not willing to risk seriously devoting themselves to their students? I had to travel to the other side of Greece for almost a decade to take teachings from him, I invited him and put in up in my home, etc... Not only me, but other people in the group he was teaching to. So it seemed kind of weird to me that he was not willing to put in the effort...

So I started looking for another teacher.

I am with my current teacher 3 years now and am in no rush to take him as my guru yet, since I do not think it is long enough. I am willing to wait another 7+ years before completely devoting myself, I prefer this to rushing in and regretting the decision and then racking myself with guilt, or pointing fingers, as seems to be the fashion right now.
Nevermind. It just seemed like that you did have a guru and had so much experience and knowledge from this, so yeah along with the empowerments you received.
But one question. I thought the lama you received an empowerment from first became your guru as stated in a previous forum on an Amitabha empowerment?

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:51 pm

I went to some empowerments, practice a daily Sadhana or two that I like. Try to power through a 3 day intensive of some of the important transmissions once in a while, you know, drink baby guts. Stuff like that.
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The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:04 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:45 pm
But one question. I thought the lama you received an empowerment from first became your guru as stated in a previous forum on an Amitabha empowerment?
Can you link to that statement?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

kausalya
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:34 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:53 am
Is it ok to not agree with your gurus view of some things, and Can I try to tell and ask further on this? I’m really confused and sometimes fearful
Let's try this again...

In the absence of other information, I must encourage caution. If you're able to discuss your confusion or your fears, perhaps someone here can offer more specific advice. If you like, I would be open to having this discussion with you. We're here to help.

Please understand that I'm not trying to discourage you in the least, but examining a prospective guru can save you trouble in the long run... no one is saying that you're wrong for pursuing this, or for wanting to have a guru.

My best advice is to relate to this teacher as a friend, for now, and to appreciate the opportunity of learning from them. Focus on the teachings, and your gratitude for the teachings, rather than ideas about who this person may be to you in the future.

Spend time thinking about what they teach you, do your best to apply it according to your understanding, and then look at the effects on your life. Wait until you have an abundance of direct experiences of the benefit they have brought you, and you have unshakeable faith in them.

This is to prevent you from breaking your vows once you do have a guru.

In my case, I jumped in headfirst.

Although it turned out to be an invaluable connection for me to make, and he is still my only guru (I wouldn't trade him for the world), I won't deny that my eagerness caused problems.

I began learning from him in 2010, and I'm just now coming to an appreciation of his role in my life. He's been with me through a lot, but I didn't make it easy for him -- he's had to pick up the pieces for me innumerable times because of my poor decisions.

If you really appreciate your teacher, you won't want to put them through this under any circumstances. It's far, far better to do the work up front, and let the relationship grow organically.

There is absolutely no rush, and your teacher will appreciate your diligence.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

Lhasa
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Lhasa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:05 am
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:56 am
How was your search for your guru and did you manage to do so?
Who said I have a guru?
Crazywisdom wrote:I thought the 50 verses on guru devotion spoke of examining for five years.
I remember 15 years.

I don't think 5 years is enough.

For example: I was following one teacher (my Refuge lama) for about 7 years. Then one day I asked if he could impart an empowerment (he is authorised to) and he started to say some stuff about not wanting to form those sorts of links with students, etc... Why would I want a teacher that is not willing to risk seriously devoting themselves to their students? I had to travel to the other side of Greece for almost a decade to take teachings from him, I invited him and put in up in my home, etc... Not only me, but other people in the group he was teaching to. So it seemed kind of weird to me that he was not willing to put in the effort...

So I started looking for another teacher.

I am with my current teacher 3 years now and am in no rush to take him as my guru yet, since I do not think it is long enough. I am willing to wait another 7+ years before completely devoting myself, I prefer this to rushing in and regretting the decision and then racking myself with guilt, or pointing fingers, as seems to be the fashion right now.
Would you please share more on 'refuge lama', what that really means? The energetic connections? And how to shut them down? I find I'm in the same place, where the refuge Lama is going in a direction I cannot go and I don't know how to leave in a dharmic way. And how to shut down links that are harmful to me. This Lama is associating with groups that have caused me great harm in the past, naively linking 'traditions', dancing with shiva, and in doing so, brought that negative energy back into manifesting in my life...so just quietly walking away is not enough, although I'm doing just that.
Since this Lama knows my history, why would I stay when he disregards my welfare? This is obviously not a serious relationship on his part. It took me six years to find out what's going on behind the scenes.
One of the downsides of trying to assess with only online access. :toilet:
P.M. is fine if this is too specific.


Thanks for sharing this, Grigoris. You put words on all these pieces of the puzzle and brought them together for me. Now I know why Garchen Rinpoche says, "Find the Lama who loves you."

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:18 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:05 pm
Would you please share more on 'refuge lama', what that really means? The energetic connections? And how to shut them down? I find I'm in the same place, where the refuge Lama is going in a direction I cannot go and I don't know how to leave in a dharmic way. And how to shut down links that are harmful to me. This Lama is associating with groups that have caused me great harm in the past, naively linking 'traditions', dancing with shiva, and in doing so, brought that negative energy back into manifesting in my life...so just quietly walking away is not enough, although I'm doing just that.
Since this Lama knows my history, why would I stay when he disregards my welfare? This is obviously not a serious relationship on his part. It took me six years to find out what's going on behind the scenes.
One of the downsides of trying to assess with only online access. :toilet:
P.M. is fine if this is too specific.


Thanks for sharing this, Grigoris. You put words on all these pieces of the puzzle and brought them together for me. Now I know why Garchen Rinpoche says, "Find the Lama who loves you."
He cannot be a refuge lama or a lama at all if he himself has not taken refuge, or has abandoned it, as seems to be the case here. Why not just stop seeing him?

kausalya
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:29 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:05 pm
Would you please share more on 'refuge lama', what that really means? The energetic connections? And how to shut them down? I find I'm in the same place, where the refuge Lama is going in a direction I cannot go and I don't know how to leave in a dharmic way. And how to shut down links that are harmful to me.
The "Dharmic way" would be to remember him for his kindnesses, and to forgive him for the harm he caused you under the influence of ignorance. That will be enough to sever any harmful connections that may exist between you.

It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. He is still one of your mother sentient beings, and you would do well not to have negative thoughts about him, even if it's best for you to part ways over perceived harm... let go of the harm and take it for what it was.

In any event, he was there for you when you needed him, and he gave you something precious, regardless of the current situation.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:18 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:05 pm
Would you please share more on 'refuge lama', what that really means? The energetic connections? And how to shut them down? I find I'm in the same place, where the refuge Lama is going in a direction I cannot go and I don't know how to leave in a dharmic way. And how to shut down links that are harmful to me. This Lama is associating with groups that have caused me great harm in the past, naively linking 'traditions', dancing with shiva, and in doing so, brought that negative energy back into manifesting in my life...so just quietly walking away is not enough, although I'm doing just that.
Since this Lama knows my history, why would I stay when he disregards my welfare? This is obviously not a serious relationship on his part. It took me six years to find out what's going on behind the scenes.
One of the downsides of trying to assess with only online access. :toilet:
P.M. is fine if this is too specific.


Thanks for sharing this, Grigoris. You put words on all these pieces of the puzzle and brought them together for me. Now I know why Garchen Rinpoche says, "Find the Lama who loves you."
For me it is enough to say "Thanks, but no thanks." And continue on your path. If you keep the links with the Dharma that they shared with you and disregard the stuff that seems to not be linked to Dharma, then you should be okay.

The truth is that my teacher was not doing something that was essentially adharmic, just that what he was doing (or the way he was doing it) did not click with me. I still have great respect for him and send him greetings now and then.

I would just quietly move on and find another teacher, pick up a Dharmapala practice from them just to be on the safe side, and keep on practicing. It is your karma which leads you into these situations and it will be your karma that will lead you out of them.

That is my personal opinion.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:04 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:45 pm
But one question. I thought the lama you received an empowerment from first became your guru as stated in a previous forum on an Amitabha empowerment?
Can you link to that statement?
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28691&p=450243&hil ... ha#p450243

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Malcolm
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:05 am
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:56 am
How was your search for your guru and did you manage to do so?
Who said I have a guru?
Crazywisdom wrote:I thought the 50 verses on guru devotion spoke of examining for five years.
I remember 15 years.

I don't think 5 years is enough.

For example: I was following one teacher (my Refuge lama) for about 7 years. Then one day I asked if he could impart an empowerment (he is authorised to) and he started to say some stuff about not wanting to form those sorts of links with students, etc... Why would I want a teacher that is not willing to risk seriously devoting themselves to their students? I had to travel to the other side of Greece for almost a decade to take teachings from him, I invited him and put in up in my home, etc... Not only me, but other people in the group he was teaching to. So it seemed kind of weird to me that he was not willing to put in the effort...

So I started looking for another teacher.

I am with my current teacher 3 years now and am in no rush to take him as my guru yet, since I do not think it is long enough. I am willing to wait another 7+ years before completely devoting myself, I prefer this to rushing in and regretting the decision and then racking myself with guilt, or pointing fingers, as seems to be the fashion right now.
Thus means you think you have no samaya. But if you have samaya, you have a guru since former is dependent on the latter.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:11 pm
Thus means you think you have no samaya. But if you have samaya, you have a guru since former is dependent on the latter.
I have samaya, definitely, that is (one reason) why I continue to do some of the practices that were given to me.

Having said that (as I said in another thread): Practicing guru yoga one maintains their samaya with all their guru, since their nature is the same.

Practicing one Yidam...

Practicing...

Also it seems that you overlooked this statement that I made: "If you keep the links with the Dharma that they shared with you..."
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:11 pm
Thus means you think you have no samaya. But if you have samaya, you have a guru since former is dependent on the latter.
I have samaya, definitely, that is (one reason) why I continue to do some of the practices that were given to me.
Why not all?

"Having said that (as I said in another thread): Practicing guru yoga one maintains their samaya with all their guru, since their nature is the same."
So when doing guru yoga, the deity/master is to be all the gurus in one instead of a teacher within the lineage of this specific guru yoga?

And so because of karma, one can slip into a different guru? So the first lama/master you receive an empowerment from does not automatically become your guru? How is this all so?

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:38 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:31 pm
Why not all?
At some point Beru Khyentse came to Greece and gave us 5 days worth of empowerments from the Chikse Kundrul.

Twenty-six empowerments to be exact. You think it is possible to keep samaya for twenty-six empowerments?

He said it himself: Chose one practice that resonates with you and do it.

You know how many other practices I have received over the years? Not all of them come with samaya, but even if they did...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:41 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:11 pm
Thus means you think you have no samaya. But if you have samaya, you have a guru since former is dependent on the latter.
I have samaya, definitely, that is (one reason) why I continue to do some of the practices that were given to me.

Having said that (as I said in another thread): Practicing guru yoga one maintains their samaya with all their guru, since their nature is the same.

Practicing one Yidam...

Practicing...

Also it seems that you overlooked this statement that I made: "If you keep the links with the Dharma that they shared with you..."
I was responding to your assertion that you do not have a guru. Also your assertion that it takes 15 years for someone to become your guru is just incorrect.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:38 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:31 pm
Why not all?
At some point Beru Khyentse came to Greece and gave us 5 days worth of empowerments from the Chikse Kundrul.

Twenty-six empowerments to be exact. You think it is possible to keep samaya for twenty-six empowerments?

He said it himself: Chose one practice that resonates with you and do it.

You know how many other practices I have received over the years? Not all of them come with samaya, but even if they did...
Dang. Do you just decide which sadhana to do for the day or do you just choose one and stick to it forever?

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:41 pm
I was responding to your assertion that you do not have a guru.
Would it be more suitable for me to assert that I do not feel like I have a guru? Or maybe to assert that for me merely satisfying some spiritual bureaucratic conditions is not enough to make me feel like a teacher is my guru? Would that make you feel better?
Also your assertion that it takes 15 years for someone to become your guru is just incorrect.
I seem to remember you saying it somewhere. So how many years is it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:56 pm
Dang. Do you just decide which sadhana to do for the day or do you just choose one and stick to it forever?
It is not a matter of choice, as such.

I asked for a particular practice and the teacher said: "If I give you this practice you will have to do it daily forever. Are you up to it?"

And I stupidly answered "Yes!"
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tenma
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:56 pm
Dang. Do you just decide which sadhana to do for the day or do you just choose one and stick to it forever?
It is not a matter of choice, as such.

I asked for a particular practice and the teacher said: "If I give you this practice you will have to do it daily forever. Are you up to it?"

And I stupidly answered "Yes!"
Ah....................

(How did that go and how is it going?)

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