True. Even so for me I like to try learn the history of the lineage and lineage masters and that can give a taste of interest...or not.Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:09 pmOf course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.Sennin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 pmCrazywisdom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 pm Before connecting w a teacher research all the lineages. Research their primary methods of instruction. Research their methods of practice. Then, follow your heart. Your heart will become inspired, awed and transfixed somehow. Find that guru and give it your all. You can practice Mahamudra and/or Mahasandhi. These areas are deep and vast. They are amazing.
I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.
Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Let’s avoid confusion. You can learn some stuff before taking teachings. For example, let’s say you want to know Geluk. Then you can learn you will learn step by step from sutra, logic, etc., and then come to receive initiation in like Guhyasamaja and practice that step by step. Or you can go to a Kagyu lama and learn they are giving pith instructions or some dakini initiation. Or to a Dzogchen teacher who is giving introductions according to intimate instructions. You can google what these are about and prepare. Then one should consider carefully where you are and how you are, what you are ready to do.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
The teacher is more important than the teaching, actually.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:30 am Let’s avoid confusion. You can learn some stuff before taking teachings. For example, let’s say you want to know Geluk. Then you can learn you will learn step by step from sutra, logic, etc., and then come to receive initiation in like Guhyasamaja and practice that step by step. Or you can go to a Kagyu lama and learn they are giving pith instructions or some dakini initiation. Or to a Dzogchen teacher who is giving introductions according to intimate instructions. You can google what these are about and prepare. Then one should consider carefully where you are and how you are, what you are ready to do.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Opinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.
As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Yeah, well for me I like the teachers who teach the tantras, demonstrates good judgment. For better or worse I got prodded by lamas to go after stuff like Chakrasamvara, Guhyagarbha and Guhyasamaja. It’s prob due to some fault of mine. I’m not that high level. Anyway, I did it and it helps me have a good foundation.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:36 pmThe teacher is more important than the teaching, actually.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:30 am Let’s avoid confusion. You can learn some stuff before taking teachings. For example, let’s say you want to know Geluk. Then you can learn you will learn step by step from sutra, logic, etc., and then come to receive initiation in like Guhyasamaja and practice that step by step. Or you can go to a Kagyu lama and learn they are giving pith instructions or some dakini initiation. Or to a Dzogchen teacher who is giving introductions according to intimate instructions. You can google what these are about and prepare. Then one should consider carefully where you are and how you are, what you are ready to do.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Huh?kausalya wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pmOpinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.
As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
Kevin...
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Mahamudra/Dzogchen are beyond opinions.Virgo wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:40 pmHuh?kausalya wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pmOpinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.
As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
Kevin...
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
I am sure lots of people have opinions about them.
Kevin...
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
That’s like so dualistic man
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
We as human beings may not be beyond opinions, but the practices we're talking about are inconceivable.Virgo wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:40 pmHuh?kausalya wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pmOpinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.
As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
Kevin...
The idea that we could say anything meaningful about them in this context is... rather silly.
Anything we do say says more about us than it does about the practices in question, particularly if we're trying to ascertain their relative value. It's asking for trouble (IMO), and it smells!
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
I had to add that in there after it occurred to me that mine amounts to just one opinion among many.
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk
If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
Hypothetically then one could combine tools from one set with tools from the other set in response to distinct practice needs. You'd want to get feedback from a practice community, ideally one with a fully functioning ecology, as you do do it. Like fusion cooking- you probably don't want to put ketchup on lasagna, but Korean barbecue tacos work for sure. or Sonora dogs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoran_hot_dog
I don't think anyone on the thread would disagree that you should try to get a clear sense of fine distinctions in views and methods and probably even visions of what to look for in an accomplished person between two systems. But I'm just sayin' we don't have to reinvent the wheel if we're influenced by some diverse dharma gates. The experiment seems to have been performed with some success over the years.
This is good, from Adeu R., one of Tsoknyi R's sawai lamas, Drukpa but had a Nyingmapa teacher in the lama jail w Garchen R and T Sangak. Khenpo Munsel.
(*thought on K Munsel- I get the impression he had an extremely unelaborate practice- not much ritual at all- I think he's the one that visualized the tools he had to work w as tantric ritual implements, but TR says he didn't really chant, he just sat, supposedly that's how he did DI as well. But I wonder if the more elaborate the practice, the more likely you are to run into contradictions- the more words- you use, the more disagreements. Kind of cynical, I'll have to chew on that.
https://www.lionsroar.com/two-great-paths/
(I'll be offline for a week but I'll read any responses if there are when I get back- if they don't get redacted- DON"T flame on this thread!! I want to be able to read it:)
If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
Hypothetically then one could combine tools from one set with tools from the other set in response to distinct practice needs. You'd want to get feedback from a practice community, ideally one with a fully functioning ecology, as you do do it. Like fusion cooking- you probably don't want to put ketchup on lasagna, but Korean barbecue tacos work for sure. or Sonora dogs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoran_hot_dog
I don't think anyone on the thread would disagree that you should try to get a clear sense of fine distinctions in views and methods and probably even visions of what to look for in an accomplished person between two systems. But I'm just sayin' we don't have to reinvent the wheel if we're influenced by some diverse dharma gates. The experiment seems to have been performed with some success over the years.
This is good, from Adeu R., one of Tsoknyi R's sawai lamas, Drukpa but had a Nyingmapa teacher in the lama jail w Garchen R and T Sangak. Khenpo Munsel.
(*thought on K Munsel- I get the impression he had an extremely unelaborate practice- not much ritual at all- I think he's the one that visualized the tools he had to work w as tantric ritual implements, but TR says he didn't really chant, he just sat, supposedly that's how he did DI as well. But I wonder if the more elaborate the practice, the more likely you are to run into contradictions- the more words- you use, the more disagreements. Kind of cynical, I'll have to chew on that.
https://www.lionsroar.com/two-great-paths/
(I'll be offline for a week but I'll read any responses if there are when I get back- if they don't get redacted- DON"T flame on this thread!! I want to be able to read it:)
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.passel wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 am I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk
If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Fantastic, thank you. I'm afraid I've never met a Sakyapa in the flesh, so my knowledge of the Lamdre system is less than meager, thanks for the response. I was really thinking of Kagyu/Nyingma sythesis, just since that's all I've really ever had any depth of exposure to (and some straight Nyingma, straight Kagyu, though neither has really clicked). Interesting, though, in that I made some quasi-perrenialist statements above without even considering a Lamdre view. The impression I get is that Kagyu Mahamudra and Sakya Lamdre could be the hardest view/practice systems to reconcile. Jampa Thaye does it, I guess, Karma Thinley. Ka-Nying and Nyinga/Sakya syncretism though seem to be more common. But 5 aggregates as the basis does make Lamdre hard to reconcile w Dz as well, at least to uninstructed worldlings like yours truly.
(Context: I had in mind a statement on a deleted? thread that MM and Dz have same basis, same fruit, different paths- which I gather does not jibe w the view of Lamdre) Wonder if Lamdre-Dz practitioners would conceive of the two as parallel practice milieu that should be engaged, simultaneously or in sequence, or whether those practitioners find a way to fit one set of instruction/practices within the other. I guess those are not mutually exclusive responses- you could subsume one system within the other in sequence. Simultaneously would be hard.
Re-reading your quote above though makes me think that a practitioner of some capacity could practice Lamdre from a Dz point of view, but not vice versa. Unless different bases can have the same fruit, though I don't recall coming across that idea before..
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
I strike "simultaneously". I'm not sure that any two practices could be practiced simultaneously if they were not the same. If they were genuinely different you'd have to practice them in sequence.
(Of course then I just think, you can practice the three levels of vows simultaneously, but they're not the same)
(Of course then I just think, you can practice the three levels of vows simultaneously, but they're not the same)
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
The basis is the same, the basis of purification is different.passel wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 amFantastic, thank you. I'm afraid I've never met a Sakyapa in the flesh, so my knowledge of the Lamdre system is less than meager, thanks for the response. I was really thinking of Kagyu/Nyingma sythesis, just since that's all I've really ever had any depth of exposure to (and some straight Nyingma, straight Kagyu, though neither has really clicked). Interesting, though, in that I made some quasi-perrenialist statements above without even considering a Lamdre view. The impression I get is that Kagyu Mahamudra and Sakya Lamdre could be the hardest view/practice systems to reconcile. Jampa Thaye does it, I guess, Karma Thinley. Ka-Nying and Nyinga/Sakya syncretism though seem to be more common. But 5 aggregates as the basis does make Lamdre hard to reconcile w Dz as well, at least to uninstructed worldlings like yours truly.
(Context: I had in mind a statement on a deleted? thread that MM and Dz have same basis, same fruit, different paths- which I gather does not jibe w the view of Lamdre) Wonder if Lamdre-Dz practitioners would conceive of the two as parallel practice milieu that should be engaged, simultaneously or in sequence, or whether those practitioners find a way to fit one set of instruction/practices within the other. I guess those are not mutually exclusive responses- you could subsume one system within the other in sequence. Simultaneously would be hard.
Re-reading your quote above though makes me think that a practitioner of some capacity could practice Lamdre from a Dz point of view, but not vice versa. Unless different bases can have the same fruit, though I don't recall coming across that idea before..
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
hm. Is that a straight Lamdre statement, or is it a way of harmonizing Lamdre and Dzogchen?
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Would this book help me get that?
https://www.shambhala.com/treasures-of- ... -1578.html
So far I haven’t been able to squeeze much out of it
https://www.shambhala.com/treasures-of- ... -1578.html
So far I haven’t been able to squeeze much out of it
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious