Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

[Aryjna]

What I am doing is saying that the present dramas do not invalidate the principle of Guru Yoga.

This is absolutely irrelevant. What does Guruyoga have to do with this matter.

It has a lot to do with it. Imagine that the Lama you feel introduced you to the nature of mind is suddenly called an abuser, what would you do? It is pretty strange that the discussion here not even touch on this subject since this is supposed to be a Vajrayana forum. Do you invalidate your recognition based on what someone else tell you about your masters behavior? Just think about it will you.

/magnus

Obviously finding out something like that is very unpleasant for the students of these teachers, who were not aware of it. But these scandals do not invalidate any general principles or practices, nor did anyone here say they do as far as I remember. If smcj is arguing against something like that, that is arguing against a non-existent argument.

[heart]

This is absolutely irrelevant. What does Guruyoga have to do with this matter.

It has a lot to do with it. Imagine that the Lama you feel introduced you to the nature of mind is suddenly called an abuser, what would you do? It is pretty strange that the discussion here not even touch on this subject since this is supposed to be a Vajrayana forum. Do you invalidate your recognition based on what someone else tell you about your masters behavior? Just think about it will you.

/magnus

If the person who introduces you to the nature of mind the abuses people, then he or she abuses people. You can either continue to keep your blinders on or you can acknowledge the truth. It won't change your recognition one way or another.

On the other hand, many people fool themselves into believing they have encountered the mind essence, and equally, there are unscrupulous teachers who have no qualifications to evaluate such an encounter, who lie to their students in order to appeal to the latter's egos.

Since you bring up the fact that this is a Vajrayāna forum, these points of view must also be considered. The reality, Dear Magnus, is that no one can introduce one to the mind essence. You must discover it on your own, a guru is merely a guide who helps you with the process of self-discovery, but the actual recognition is your job.

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality,
can’t be described by another, the connate
cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru,
time and method, and from one’s merit.
-- Hevajra Tantra

You know what I am talking about Malcolm. You yourself have said here a number of times that these Gurus are no real Gurus since they abused someone. You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do? I think "keeping the blinders on" isn't viable possibility. This is a genuine horror show that somehow don't seem to be a part of this discussion.

I also would like to say that I have been around Vajrayana for a long time and heard all kind of stories of about all kind of Gurus and if having sex with a student always is abuse then no-one here seems to be as safe as they think they are.

/magnus

[amanitamusc]

It has a lot to do with it. Imagine that the Lama you feel introduced you to the nature of mind is suddenly called an abuser, what would you do? It is pretty strange that the discussion here not even touch on this subject since this is supposed to be a Vajrayana forum. Do you invalidate your recognition based on what someone else tell you about your masters behavior? Just think about it will you.

/magnus

If the person who introduces you to the nature of mind the abuses people, then he or she abuses people. You can either continue to keep your blinders on or you can acknowledge the truth. It won't change your recognition one way or another.

On the other hand, many people fool themselves into believing they have encountered the mind essence, and equally, there are unscrupulous teachers who have no qualifications to evaluate such an encounter, who lie to their students in order to appeal to the latter's egos.

Since you bring up the fact that this is a Vajrayāna forum, these points of view must also be considered. The reality, Dear Magnus, is that no one can introduce one to the mind essence. You must discover it on your own, a guru is merely a guide who helps you with the process of self-discovery, but the actual recognition is your job.

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality,
can’t be described by another, the connate
cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru,
time and method, and from one’s merit.
-- Hevajra Tantra

You know what I am talking about Malcolm. You yourself have said here a number of times that these Gurus are no real Gurus since they abused someone. You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do? I think "keeping the blinders on" isn't viable possibility. This is a genuine horror show that somehow don't seem to be a part of this discussion.

I also would like to say that I have been around Vajrayana for a long time and heard all kind of stories of about all kind of Gurus and if having sex with a student always is abuse then no-one here is safe.

/magnus

It might be a horror show but if you were on your way with Thogal.....
Anything short of that i would guess doubt could be there.
Just a thought.

[Malcolm]

You know what I am talking about Malcolm. You yourself have said here a number of times that these Gurus are no real Gurus since they abused someone.

As have a number of esteemed lamas such as Migyur Rinpoche, and so on.

You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do?

Leave and find a better guru.

I think "keeping the blinders on" isn't viable possibility. This is a genuine horror show that somehow don't seem to be a part of this discussion.

In the contrary, it has been part of the discussion.

I also would like to say that I have been around Vajrayana for a long time and heard all kind of stories of about all kind of Gurus and if having sex with a student always is abuse...

As in any thing, the perception of harm depends on the student. And mind we are only talking about women students (Male students do not generally find themselves receiving unwanted attentions of their male gurus. It does happen, as in the case of the Regent, but it is exceedingly rare. Though with more westerners adopting the guru role, it is certain to become more common as more gay men become Vajrayāna teachers). Back to the point, you live in Sweden -- Swedish laws around sexual misconduct are very strict. Much of the behavior we hear about is quite definitely actionable criminal behavior under Swedish law. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has a very sensible approach to these issues -- rather than insisting that Vajrayāna masters are above normal moral, legal, and ethical constraints, he observes that if one follows Dzogchen rules, one is likely to get arrested in Italy. So in Italy, one follows Italian rules, not Dzogchen rules. If Vajrayāna gurus do not have enough sense to understand the place where they live or are traveling, this calls into question both their wisdom and their skillful means. Of course, from some people's POV I am being a "moralist" and should "just go back to Mahāyāna" because I "can't handle Vajrayāna."

then no-one here seems to be as safe as they think they are.

Well, it is definitely the case that the day where Vajrayāna masters could prey on their women disciples with impunity has come to an end, so yes, Vajrayāna masters are not as safe as they once were. They are going to have to shape up and understand that Western women, in increasingly, Tibetan women, are not going to stand for the continuation of the patriarchal exploitation in Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism in general. #Timesup

[heart]

You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do?

Leave and find a better guru.

You can leave, you can find an other Guru, but you are still in great debt to the Guru that introduced you to the natural state. You can't ever really turn your back on him/her as you are bound by Samaya, the Samaya of the natural state. Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

Oh yes, "I got mine" and screw everyone else.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

A friend of mine once suggested checking out a teacher by first talking to the teacher’s ex-students.

[heart]

Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

Oh yes, "I got mine" and screw everyone else.

That isn't really the feeling I get from her. I kind of get the feeling she got a good heart just like I know you have a good heart.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do?

Leave and find a better guru.

You can leave, you can find an other Guru, but you are still in great debt to the Guru that introduced you to the natural state. You can't ever really turn your back on him/her as you are bound by Samaya, the Samaya of the natural state. Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

/magnus

Honestly Magnus, your going on and on about hypothetical gurus is a little strange. Your guru is the nicest person imaginable, and there is no doubt he is quite beyond such behavior himself. So why even bring it up? It is not like you yourself are facing such an issue.

[heart]

Leave and find a better guru.

You can leave, you can find an other Guru, but you are still in great debt to the Guru that introduced you to the natural state. You can't ever really turn your back on him/her as you are bound by Samaya, the Samaya of the natural state. Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

/magnus

Honestly Magnus, your going on and on about hypothetical gurus is a little strange. Your guru is the nicest person imaginable, and there is no doubt he is quite beyond such behavior himself. So why even bring it up? It is not like you yourself are facing such an issue.

I don't have this problem, that is true, but nevertheless I can understand the problem for students of Sogyal Rinpoche for example. I only met Sogyal Rinpoche once and he talked the whole teaching about the natural state. What he said didn't sound bad at all, it was very well put even if he felt a bit full of himself for me. It seem to me a bit easy to say "he is not a real master" because I really don't know this nor will I ever know. But I imagine his students could possibly have a similar relationship with him as I have with my master and then it becomes a really difficult issue. That is what I been trying to express here. Samaya is something very fragile it have to be handled with care.

/magnus

[PeterC]

You recognized the natural state "in dependence on the Guru" and spent 20 years applying the methods your Guru gave you and now he suddenly is no real Guru. What do you do?

Leave and find a better guru.

You can leave, you can find an other Guru, but you are still in great debt to the Guru that introduced you to the natural state. You can't ever really turn your back on him/her as you are bound by Samaya, the Samaya of the natural state. Possibly you can arrive at what Pema Chödron call "no right, no wrong", and that is my whole point.

/magnus

You can maintain samaya while not seeking further teachings. The gelugpas and the karma kagyus both went through situations in recent years where this became necessary as people were forced to choose between gurus, and in the case of the gelugpas there was very clear guidance given on how to do that. Of course those events were highly disruptive to those lineages, that’s unavoidable.

I was disappointed with Pema Chodron’s comments. Many other things she could have said would have been better.

On your last comment - obviously Sogyal was not a qualified guru. Anyone can learn the words and talk in a convincing way about, well, anything in a one-way monologue. The test of whether the gurus teachings were authentic has to come from your side. That said I see your point - there are teachings I’ve recevied that it took me years to understand and recognize for what they were, it’s not always easy to determine if what the teacher is offering is gold or iron pyrites.

[Quay]

...Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has a very sensible approach to these issues -- rather than insisting that Vajrayāna masters are above normal moral, legal, and ethical constraints, he observes that if one follows Dzogchen rules, one is likely to get arrested in Italy. So in Italy, one follows Italian rules, not Dzogchen rules. If Vajrayāna gurus do not have enough sense to understand the place where they live or are traveling, this calls into question both their wisdom and their skillful means....

I think this is a really pithy and concise way to put it. Accords with the sense of one's conduct being as fine as grains of flour while one's view is as high as the sky.

Of course any newly arrived immigrant is going to take some time to adjust and adapt to their new country's rule, customs, etc. But if that newly arrived person is a Vajryana guru and doesn't seem to have the sense to not run afoul of basic civil laws...well.

Parenthetically, I studied with a teacher/guru for years and ended up moving on. It was initially difficult not for Dharma reasons but rather for the erratic Tibetan cultural notion that occurs in some places that once you've chosen a teacher you can never leave. Once I separated that odd tradition from practice all was well.

[Grigoris]

I also would like to say that I have been around Vajrayana for a long time and heard all kind of stories of about all kind of Gurus and if having sex with a student always is abuse then no-one here seems to be as safe as they think they are.

Blinkers, it seems, come in all shapes, sizes and colours.

[weitsicht]

On your last comment - obviously Sogyal was not a qualified guru. Anyone can learn the words and talk in a convincing way about, well, anything in a one-way monologue. The test of whether the gurus teachings were authentic has to come from your side. That said I see your point - there are teachings I’ve recevied that it took me years to understand and recognize for what they were, it’s not always easy to determine if what the teacher is offering is gold or iron pyrites.

I know people to whom Sogyal had an impact as deep to consider him their guru. And do not discard that notion.
They are left now with a load of practise and in his absence, that is what needs be done for them: practising. A nice opportunity maybe for them meeting with their inner guru. Up from a certain point hence I believe searching for an alternative guru right-away need not be the reaction.

Back to the Shambala:
Early warning signals seem to have been all over since long.
A very reflected article by Ellen Mains dating back to Feb 2010
https://www.chronicleproject.com/shambh ... onnection/

[PeterC]

On your last comment - obviously Sogyal was not a qualified guru. Anyone can learn the words and talk in a convincing way about, well, anything in a one-way monologue. The test of whether the gurus teachings were authentic has to come from your side. That said I see your point - there are teachings I’ve recevied that it took me years to understand and recognize for what they were, it’s not always easy to determine if what the teacher is offering is gold or iron pyrites.

I know people to whom Sogyal had an impact as deep to consider him their guru. And do not discard that notion.
They are left now with a load of practise and in his absence, that is what needs be done for them: practising. A nice opportunity maybe for them meeting with their inner guru. Up from a certain point hence I believe searching for an alternative guru right-away need not be the reaction.

You're right, it's not for me to say what they did or didn't experience (or what they thought they experienced). What we can't say is that what they experienced is a guru-student relationship. Every televangelist stealing money from their church will have hundreds of not thousands of congregants who think this person has changed their life, cured them of cancer, whatever. This may sound harsh but the abused are often not able to assess their relationship with the abuser.

Moreover at Rigpa they were exposed to genuine teachings and empowerments from many great masters, not just Sogyal. If they've been there for a while they will have received teachings from very great lamas. So as you say, they may have no pressing need to seek another teacher.

[haha]

It may be useful to at least some people.

In the future, perhaps Buddhists could form an organization to certify people as teachers after examining their Dharma understanding as well as their conduct.

There are cases of lamas or monks who would never be in a position to give teachings or initiations to the Tibetan community, but in the West they suddenly become great lamas.

Everyone is accountable for his or her behavior. For someone with full realization, ingesting urine, feces, alcohol, and human flesh are all the same. But if those Buddhist teachers who ethically misbehave were to eat feces or drink urine, I doubt they would enjoy it!

The practice of tantra is never an excuse for unethical behavior. If one understands Vajrayana well, there are no grounds to excuse bad behavior. One of the tantras states that the ideal lay tantric practitioner should follow all of the Vinaya (monastic discipline), but without wearing robes or engaging in monastic ceremonies.

If one presents the teachings clearly, others benefit. But if someone is supposed to propagate the Dharma and their behavior is harmful, it is our responsibility to criticize this with a good motivation. This is constructive criticism, and you do not need to feel uncomfortable doing it. In “The Twenty Verses on the Bodhisattvas’ Vows,” it says that there is no fault in whatever action you engage in with pure motivation………..Exposing the negative allows space for the positive side to increase. When publicizing such misconduct, it should be made clear that such teachers have disregarded the Buddha’s advice. However, when making public the ethical misconduct of a Buddhist teacher, it is only fair to mention their good qualities as well.

In other words, by offering to or harming your teacher, the karma accumulated is equal to acting in the same way toward the Buddha himself.

In tantric practice, we try to see all beings as Buddhas and the environment as a pure land, so it would be absurd not to see our teacher as a Buddha. However, this view should not be taught to beginners. If it is misunderstood and gives the guru free license, it is like poison, destroying the teachings, the guru, and the disciple.

According to Vinaya, if a teacher tells you to do a non-Dharmic action, you should reject that advice. According to Paramitayana (the bodhisattva vehicle), if an instruction conforms with the Buddhist path, follow it. Otherwise, do not. According to Vajrayana (or Tantrayana), if a guru gives an instruction that is not in accord with the Dharma, the student should not follow it and should go to the teacher to clarify and explain why they cannot.

If the guru refuses to accept your reservations about following their non-Dharmic or unskillful instructions and kicks you out, pack your bags and leave. Your guru can tell you to leave physically, but they cannot make your mind leave the Dharma.

What is in the best interest of the Buddhadharma is much more important than anything concerning an individual guru. Therefore, if it is necessary to criticize a guru to save the Buddhadharma or to benefit several hundred of their disciples, do not hesitate. Afterwards you can go to that teacher and explain that you acted as you did with a pure motivation. If the guru gets angry, this is another indication of their shortcomings.

If you have not yet taken someone as your guru and you find out about their misconduct, then you can stop the relationship. If you have already taken tantric initiations from them, avoid developing disrespect or antipathy. In such cases, the Kalachakra Tantra advises us to maintain a neutral attitude and not pursue the relationship any further. You can keep your distance, while still considering that person as your guru because they have benefited you Dharmically in the past.

If someone is a student of an abusive teacher and you see that their relationship with that teacher is harmful, you should warn that student. But if that relationship is not harmful, you should leave it alone.

I don’t know. Although the guru has in a sense broken the samaya, that does not allow the student to break it as well. If the guru kills, that does not mean I can too!

However, if we know that by not speaking out, their bad behavior will continue and will harm the Buddhadharma, and we still remain silent, that is wrong.

So is misusing the idea of dakinis by saying things such as “You have signs of being a qualified dakini,” or flattering the student, “You have very great Dharma potential.” Women should not be afraid to say no!

Edited by Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron

Some important points are noted here from “Ethics in the Teacher-Student Relationship: The Responsibilities of Teachers and Students”. From notes taken during the meeting of H.H. the Dalai Lama and Western Buddhist Teachers in Dharamsala, 1993. Link
I can say that conference made huge impact.

[amanitamusc]

On your last comment - obviously Sogyal was not a qualified guru. Anyone can learn the words and talk in a convincing way about, well, anything in a one-way monologue. The test of whether the gurus teachings were authentic has to come from your side. That said I see your point - there are teachings I’ve recevied that it took me years to understand and recognize for what they were, it’s not always easy to determine if what the teacher is offering is gold or iron pyrites.

I know people to whom Sogyal had an impact as deep to consider him their guru. And do not discard that notion.
They are left now with a load of practise and in his absence, that is what needs be done for them: practising. A nice opportunity maybe for them meeting with their inner guru. Up from a certain point hence I believe searching for an alternative guru right-away need not be the reaction.

You're right, it's not for me to say what they did or didn't experience (or what they thought they experienced). What we can't say is that what they experienced is a guru-student relationship. Every televangelist stealing money from their church will have hundreds of not thousands of congregants who think this person has changed their life, cured them of cancer, whatever. This may sound harsh but the abused are often not able to assess their relationship with the abuser.

Moreover at Rigpa they were exposed to genuine teachings and empowerments from many great masters, not just Sogyal. If they've been there for a while they will have received teachings from very great lamas. So as you say, they may have no pressing need to seek another teacher.

If they were able to know the true nature from a Lama that visited sogyal
and taught why would they need sogyal and the same would go for Masters
teaching at horny sakyom's digs.

[Gatinho]

It has always been apparent to me that when I take refuge in the lama and try to uphold samaya vows - its not the personality of the lama which I am addressing. It is more the lama as the holder of the treasury of oral instructions - or you could say it is the whole lineage of dharma which is giving authority and authenticity to the transmission and permission to do a certain practice. Obviously one hopes that the lama will personally live up to the tradition and keep to the dharma in his personal life - and indeed those that I know do seem to (as far as I know!). But it seems to me that I am being given authority to do a practice myself and I know it is very popular (encouraged even) to hang around lamas basking in the ambience - for me I have no inclination to do so. I avoid dharma centres and only go for specific teachings every few years or so. I'm not sure if this makes me very unusual - but I think that examining one's teacher for many years, receiving instructions for practice and going away and doing it, is more traditional than what seems the standard now of receiving dozens of teachings and empowerments (while idolising one's lama as a saviour) and joining a 'community'.

So I am fairly confident in saying that if in the unlikely event of a scandal involving my lama breaking tomorrow - while I would be surprised/puzzled and so on - it would make no difference whatsoever to my practice. And I would expect, as has been suggested above for the law to be applied according to the country in which it took place as it would with anyone else. If the lama has 'crazy wisdom' enough to sexually abuse his students then he'll have to have crazy wisdom enough for a protracted court appearance and a lengthy prison sentence. A good chance to burn off some of that karma.

[Motova]

But it seems to me that I am being given authority to do a practice myself and I know it is very popular (encouraged even) to hang around lamas basking in the ambience - for me I have no inclination to do so. I avoid dharma centres and only go for specific teachings every few years or so. I'm not sure if this makes me very unusual - but I think that examining one's teacher for many years, receiving instructions for practice and going away and doing it, is more traditional than what seems the standard now of receiving dozens of teachings and empowerments (while idolising one's lama as a saviour) and joining a 'community'.

Being a part of The Community is very important in Dharma... especially Vajrayana.

[Gatinho]

But it seems to me that I am being given authority to do a practice myself and I know it is very popular (encouraged even) to hang around lamas basking in the ambience - for me I have no inclination to do so. I avoid dharma centres and only go for specific teachings every few years or so. I'm not sure if this makes me very unusual - but I think that examining one's teacher for many years, receiving instructions for practice and going away and doing it, is more traditional than what seems the standard now of receiving dozens of teachings and empowerments (while idolising one's lama as a saviour) and joining a 'community'.

Being a part of The Community is very important in Dharma... especially Vajrayana.

Could you explain why? and what is 'The Community' as distinct to 'a community' - thanks.