Charging for Dharma

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:02 pm

pael wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:08 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am


Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
Vajrayāna is compassion?
not necessarily in the display; but compassion is naturally there and still used as a mean to reaching emptiness, as in mahayana.

my teacher said that it is not the only way, giving the example of the Ra Lotsawa, etc.

however, other ways are not for fool tantrism students that can't transform emotions.

Motova
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Motova » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:17 pm

haha wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:55 pm
Once, I asked a higher teacher, “What gift is the best to offer him?” He told me, “Practicing the teaching is the best gift to offer him.”
1. Practicing.

2. Material offerings.

3. Praises and prayers.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:23 pm

Deleted. dont feel like my post was as relevant as i thought.

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Queequeg
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:00 pm

Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am
There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key...
What Dharma paths are these? Sounds like a rhetorical straw man.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:25 pm

If you want to hear song birds, put up a bird feeder and keep it stocked with the kinds of seeds song birds like.

There are all kinds of strategies for putting up a bird feeder and keeping it stocked.

Some have the fortune to manifest their will like a strong man bends his arm.

If you can't afford to put up a bird feeder and keep it stocked, then acquire the resources, or find someone who has the resources and is generous enough to put up a bird feeder and kind enough to let you come sit in their yard. See Anathapindika.

Alternatively, today we have the example of the Commonwealth - gather like minded and pool the resources to build and maintain a bird feeder.

Having a rare bird with a beautiful song is wonderful and auspicious event...

Westerners in particular seem to have been conditioned to relate to each other in commercial terms. We go to a zoo where song birds are kept, maybe buy some feed, throw it at the birds and in any event demand a song. Get mad when the bird doesn't sing.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:51 pm

Also at the zoo: bored employees at the ticket counter who roll their eyes when you tell them you have no money but want to see the song birds. "No ticket no birds. Next."

The whole commercial transaction is inhumane, not to mention the song bird isn't necessarily happy, either.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

WeiHan
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by WeiHan » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:49 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:46 pm
Has anyone here also experienced being turned down from receiving teachings because of lack of funds? I was recently barred from receiving teachings on Phowa (don't wish to disclose which specific teacher or lineage, but it's a Nyingma Lama), because of my lack of a proper budget. I do understand that teachers ought to receive our help in order to keep teaching, etc. But, does Dharma needs a tag price in order to make itself available to all who have the connections and wish to practice? What're your experiences, opinions? Thank you all!
I am sorry for your experience. I have a different angle of looking at the issues. If all Dharma centres operate in this mode, a little bit like membership private club, wouldn't it makes Dharma more difficult to spread as it appears less welcoming to general public?

There is another way of looking at it. I live in asia and have personally seen less well off people being sponsored by Dharma friends for Dharma teaching. This thing is abit like karma...try foster some virtuous karmic connection..I don't know, in the east here especially in chinese mahayana, this is called "virtuous connections", it may turn out very helpful for your Dharma practices or Dharma works in future..

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Quay
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Quay » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:27 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:00 pm
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am
There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key...
What Dharma paths are these? Sounds like a rhetorical straw man.
It is not. What you hear is simply something you're not familiar with.

An example of such a path would be one offered at some Zen centers after they dealt with scandals involving abbots and/or senior teachers. For example, the San Francisco Zen Center is very much a kind of republic, if you will, in that there is a governing board that answers to all members and seeks consensus on policy and procedure including things like what to teach and when. They also set policy as regards donations, memberships, event charges, etc.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Quay
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Quay » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:36 pm
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.
Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
I would agree that no -ists or -isms apply.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Quay
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Quay » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:29 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:00 pm
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am
There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key...
What Dharma paths are these? Sounds like a rhetorical straw man.
It is not. What you hear is simply something you're not familiar with.

An example of such a path would be one offered at some Zen centers after they dealt with scandals involving abbots and/or senior teachers. For example, the San Francisco Zen Center is very much a kind of republic, if you will, in that there is an elected governing board that answers to all members and seeks consensus on policy and procedure including things like what to teach and when. They also set policy as regards donations, memberships, event charges, etc.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Aryjna
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Aryjna » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:34 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:44 pm
I know and understand your point, I also agree very much with you! Dharma is a priority, always!

I'm doing reference to some unfortunate comments that unless you are "dying", you might have money to invest in teachings. But my point is, I think this is not so simple as the way some people put here.
If you are referring to my comment you should try reading it again.

Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:41 pm

Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:53 am


Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
I would agree that no -ists or -isms apply.
Well, the social and political model of Vajrayāna is the family. Guru and consort are the parents, disciples are the children. One cannot belong to some family simply because one demands admittance.

Norwegian
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Norwegian » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:41 pm
Quay wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 am


Vajrayāna is also not socialist.
I would agree that no -ists or -isms apply.
Well, the social and political model of Vajrayāna is the family. Guru and consort are the parents, disciples are the children. One cannot belong to some family simply because one demands admittance.
And this is a very important point that should be understood.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

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Grigoris
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:19 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:49 pm
I am sorry for your experience. I have a different angle of looking at the issues. If all Dharma centres operate in this mode, a little bit like membership private club, wouldn't it makes Dharma more difficult to spread as it appears less welcoming to general public?
What continues to surprise me is how people fail to understand something so simple as: teachers, centers and teachings have expenses that need to be paid.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

In the west sponsors are rare and thus people (users/members) have to pay in order for costs to be covered.

It is that simple.

If westerners want the Dharma to flourish, if they want to receive these precious teachings, if (as Bodhisattvas) they want others to benefit from these teachings, then they have to pay.

No piss-weak excuses. No acting like spoiled children, demanding things be given to them and having tantrums when they don't get them.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

WeiHan
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by WeiHan » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:19 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:49 pm
I am sorry for your experience. I have a different angle of looking at the issues. If all Dharma centres operate in this mode, a little bit like membership private club, wouldn't it makes Dharma more difficult to spread as it appears less welcoming to general public?
What continues to surprise me is how people fail to understand something so simple as: teachers, centers and teachings have expenses that need to be paid.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

In the west sponsors are rare and thus people (users/members) have to pay in order for costs to be covered.

It is that simple.

If westerners want the Dharma to flourish, if they want to receive these precious teachings, if (as Bodhisattvas) they want others to benefit from these teachings, then they have to pay.

No piss-weak excuses. No acting like spoiled children, demanding things be given to them and having tantrums when they don't get them.
I am not saying that it is wrong to operate in this manner. But we may have to recognise that, it is hard to spread Dharma wide using this mode. In the past, Dharma can spread wide because we have the emperors as patrons. Without big generous patrons, it is difficult.

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Nemo
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Nemo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pm

Old days teachers gave too much. Now many in the new generation treat it like a business. Some can't wait to get upstairs and count the money.

Did the Buddha charge for teachings? Probably not considering he forbade monks from touching money. Capitalism is a revolutionary force. Everything has a value in money and the thought that something can't have a price put on it is scandalous. The solution is of course to squeeze money out of people to be taught something no one owns that is the birthright of every sentient being. How will we charge the birds that hear the tinkling bells on the stupa? They are stealing the blessing for free!

Malcolm
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm

Nemo wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pm
Old days teachers gave too much. Now many in the new generation treat it like a business. Some can't wait to get upstairs and count the money.

Did the Buddha charge for teachings? Probably not considering he forbade monks from touching money. Capitalism is a revolutionary force. Everything has a value in money and the thought that something can't have a price put on it is scandalous. The solution is of course to squeeze money out of people to be taught something no one owns that is the birthright of every sentient being. How will we charge the birds that hear the tinkling bells on the stupa? They are stealing the blessing for free!
How we forget:

"Then Vairocana and Legdrup offered Shri Singha a two pints of gold dust and a finger sized golden ingot and made a request, “The king of Tibet has comprehended the Dharma of cause and result. Since he has send us to seek the Dharma that transcends cause and result, please grant our request for the Dharma beyond cause and effect.”

Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money. Guess those Indian masters were really scandalous...and they had not even received any teachings...

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Queequeg
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Queequeg » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm
Nemo wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pm
Old days teachers gave too much. Now many in the new generation treat it like a business. Some can't wait to get upstairs and count the money.

Did the Buddha charge for teachings? Probably not considering he forbade monks from touching money. Capitalism is a revolutionary force. Everything has a value in money and the thought that something can't have a price put on it is scandalous. The solution is of course to squeeze money out of people to be taught something no one owns that is the birthright of every sentient being. How will we charge the birds that hear the tinkling bells on the stupa? They are stealing the blessing for free!
How we forget:

"Then Vairocana and Legdrup offered Shri Singha a two pints of gold dust and a finger sized golden ingot and made a request, “The king of Tibet has comprehended the Dharma of cause and result. Since he has send us to seek the Dharma that transcends cause and result, please grant our request for the Dharma beyond cause and effect.”

Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money. Guess those Indian masters were really scandalous...and they had not even received any teachings...
I don't think you guys are talking about the same "old days."
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:00 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm
Nemo wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pm
Old days teachers gave too much. Now many in the new generation treat it like a business. Some can't wait to get upstairs and count the money.

Did the Buddha charge for teachings? Probably not considering he forbade monks from touching money. Capitalism is a revolutionary force. Everything has a value in money and the thought that something can't have a price put on it is scandalous. The solution is of course to squeeze money out of people to be taught something no one owns that is the birthright of every sentient being. How will we charge the birds that hear the tinkling bells on the stupa? They are stealing the blessing for free!
How we forget:

"Then Vairocana and Legdrup offered Shri Singha a two pints of gold dust and a finger sized golden ingot and made a request, “The king of Tibet has comprehended the Dharma of cause and result. Since he has send us to seek the Dharma that transcends cause and result, please grant our request for the Dharma beyond cause and effect.”

Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money. Guess those Indian masters were really scandalous...and they had not even received any teachings...
I don't think you guys are talking about the same "old days."
I think here we are talking about Vajrayāna teachings.

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Grigoris
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Re: Charging for Dharma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:11 pm

Nemo wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:12 pm
Did the Buddha charge for teachings?
People donated vast tracts of land to the Buddha. If westerners donated vast tracts of land to teachers and centers then maybe they wouldn't have to charge as much since one of the major expenses (rent) would be negated.

Do you want to donate some land?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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