Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

ItsRaining
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by ItsRaining » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:21 pm
passel wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:12 pm
Lankavatara is old news in Chan as near as I can tell- supplanted.
Nevertheless, the sudden approach comes from it.
As far as I know, it’s generally accepted the Sudden approach originated with Zhu Daosheng and Zhi Daolin before the translation of the Lankavatara. And the Lanka although used in hagiographies isn’t really focused on as the topic of other Chan writings like those about practice. With no commentaries from early a Chance practitioners. Early works like the Two Practices and Four Entrances make no reference of any Sutra like the Lanka.

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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:39 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:21 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:15 pm
This is not a universally accepted scheme, Norwegian, and one I don't find persuasive or practical at all. But horses for courses.
It is an accepted scheme in this sub forum.
In addition, Dzogchen has many methods, both for introducing the student, and for the student to cultivate.

Kevin...

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 pm

passel wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:21 pm
passel wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:12 pm
Lankavatara is old news in Chan as near as I can tell- supplanted.
Nevertheless, the sudden approach comes from it.
Is dzogchen not ‘sudden’ then, since it has its own sources, or are there multiple origins for ‘sudden’ teachings?
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:53 pm

ItsRaining wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:21 pm
passel wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:12 pm
Lankavatara is old news in Chan as near as I can tell- supplanted.
Nevertheless, the sudden approach comes from it.
As far as I know, it’s generally accepted the Sudden approach originated with Zhu Daosheng and Zhi Daolin before the translation of the Lankavatara. And the Lanka although used in hagiographies isn’t really focused on as the topic of other Chan writings like those about practice. With no commentaries from early a Chance practitioners. Early works like the Two Practices and Four Entrances make no reference of any Sutra like the Lanka.
Do Daosheng's ideas have any impact on Chan?

PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by PeterC » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:09 am

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:45 pm

Yeah, I think your hunch may be a little bit off. They're rare, but you can find practitioners of both Ch'an/Zen/Seon and Dzogchen or Mahamudra. I'm a bit more familiar with Chinese tradition, but I've heard korean zen (Seon) practitioners sometimes have tantric influence. Undoubtedly, some go for teaching from Tibetans.

There is a master in Taiwan of Ch'an, Dzogchen and Mahamudra. He told us that they were all of the same level and the same in nature, with only the slightest differences... He may have meant differences in flavor, or perhaps in technique. But he said Ch'an was only suitable for people of the highest capacity, and it relies on self-power. Vajrayana is easier, as it relies on blessings of the guru. He often talked about Xuyun (Empty Cloud) as the last person in history to achieve enlightenment through purely ch'an methods. (By enlightenment, he probably meant buddhahood. Often he would compare Empty Cloud with Milarepa, Chatral Rinpoche and Shakya Shri.)

Nan Huai-Ch'in was a famous master in China and Taiwan who studied Dao and Ch'an as well as tantric methods. I'm not sure if he studied Mahamudra and Dzogchen in particular, but he might be good to check out.

I also know of a Hungarian student of Khenpo Munsel Rinpoche, who meditated in a cave behind Khenpo Munsel Rinpoche's monastery for 9 years. He also studied Ch'an in China and says that Ch'an, Dzogchen and Mahamudra are basically the same. He lives in Beijing now.
There are plenty of people who have practiced in both traditions. I have myself. But to have a useful experiential point of view on how they differ you would need to have done multiple decades of study and practice in each. Most people who claim knowledge of multiple traditions have credible experience of one and much lighter experience of another. That’s not really enough. Bear in mind that there are some prominent dzogchen teachers around today who were told by their gurus not to give dzogchen teachings until they were in their 50s. So that’s forty or so years of practice until they’re in a position to share their experience.

Nan Huajin’s experience, and the validation of that experience by his teachers, is in large parts self-proclaimed. I seriously doubt how much he really knew about the Vajrayana from a practice perspective.

It is easy to say that these things are all basically the same. Superficially they look very similar. But there are profound differences in how they are presented and practiced. I just don’t think it helps anyone to conflate them.

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passel
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by passel » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 pm
passel wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:21 pm


Nevertheless, the sudden approach comes from it.
Is dzogchen not ‘sudden’ then, since it has its own sources, or are there multiple origins for ‘sudden’ teachings?
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.
Good
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Dechen Norbu » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:25 am

post enlightenment mmmmmmm (insert homer)

PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by PeterC » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:53 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:25 am
post enlightenment mmmmmmm (insert homer)
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Temicco
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Temicco » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 pm
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.
What does it come from, then?
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན། །
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན། །
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན། །
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན། །

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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Josef » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:24 pm

Temicco wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 pm
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.
What does it come from, then?
It doenst "come from" anywhere.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:35 pm

Temicco wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 pm
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.
What does it come from, then?
I don’t know about that, in Guhyagarbha Lonchenpa describes great perfection yogi as someone who can realize union of creation and completion stage without subject-object or sense of doership, which appears like a reflection. Whatever word you want to use, it comes from practice.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:52 pm

Temicco wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 pm
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.
What does it come from, then?
Liberation does not come from anywhere. Everything is already liberated, just as it is.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:52 pm
Temicco wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 pm
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.
What does it come from, then?
Liberation does not come from anywhere. Everything is already liberated, just as it is.
Sure. But defiled beings have to get into some method.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:15 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:52 pm
Temicco wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:37 am


What does it come from, then?
Liberation does not come from anywhere. Everything is already liberated, just as it is.
Sure. But defiled beings have to get into some method.
Sure. But that has nothing to do with liberation, from a Dzogchen perspective.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:15 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:52 pm


Liberation does not come from anywhere. Everything is already liberated, just as it is.
Sure. But defiled beings have to get into some method.
Sure. But that has nothing to do with liberation, from a Dzogchen perspective.
Yes. Everything is already pure. Though, we dont notice this.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:06 pm

So.... liberated means?... liberated from what bondage?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

florin
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by florin » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:02 am

The Secret Essence Tantra says:
Unbound from the beginning, so there is no new liberation,
Buddha's phenomena are perfectly accomplished from
the beginning.


There are lots of dzogchenpa's that hold the following view:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.


Unfortunately this is completely incorrect .

Longchenpa explains:
Since everything is the great spontaneous presence of Kuntuzangpo,
There never was delusion, there never is delusion, and there never will be delusion.
This is beyond the limit of just naming or not naming cyclic existence.
No one was ever deluded in the past anywhere,
No one is deluded now, and no one will be deluded in the future.
This is the stainless emptiness wisdom mind of the three realms
of existence, great stainless purity from the beginning.
Since there is no delusion, there are no undeluded phenomena.
Original spontaneity is great self-occurring awareness.
There never was liberation, there is not liberation now,
and there never will be liberation.
The past is just a name, so no one has ever been liberated.
There will be no liberation because from the beginning,
nothing is bound.
Like sky, free from distinctions, limitations, and directions,
perfectly pure,
This is complete liberation, the wisdom mind of great
stainless purity from the beginning.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:28 pm

florin wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:02 am
The Secret Essence Tantra says:
Unbound from the beginning, so there is no new liberation,
Buddha's phenomena are perfectly accomplished from
the beginning.


There are lots of dzogchenpa's that hold the following view:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.


Unfortunately this is completely incorrect .

Longchenpa explains:
Since everything is the great spontaneous presence of Kuntuzangpo,
There never was delusion, there never is delusion, and there never will be delusion.
This is beyond the limit of just naming or not naming cyclic existence.
No one was ever deluded in the past anywhere,
No one is deluded now, and no one will be deluded in the future.
This is the stainless emptiness wisdom mind of the three realms
of existence, great stainless purity from the beginning.
Since there is no delusion, there are no undeluded phenomena.
Original spontaneity is great self-occurring awareness.
There never was liberation, there is not liberation now,
and there never will be liberation.
The past is just a name, so no one has ever been liberated.
There will be no liberation because from the beginning,
nothing is bound.
Like sky, free from distinctions, limitations, and directions,
perfectly pure,
This is complete liberation, the wisdom mind of great
stainless purity from the beginning.
Great birth is like a Buddha certificate. Congratulate yourself on a job well done. So there’s no lineage, no empowerment to receive, no method to practice? You’re not deluded. You’re a Buddha. Is that so?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:25 pm

So... buddha’s Four actions? How does primordially liberated “yogi” do?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:59 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:25 pm
So... buddha’s Four actions? How does primordially liberated “yogi” do?

Activities are effortless
due to the natural perfection of awakening,


-- Kun byed rgyal po.

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