What is permanent in mahayana?

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AkashicBrother
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What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by AkashicBrother » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 am

im having diffculty undestanding some mahayana concepts. according to nagarjuna nothing is permanent and everything is empty (sunyata). however some buddhist texts say that things like the dharmakaya and the dharmadatu are permanent and the dharmic laws are constant. does that change with the buddhist school or there is a way to balance such concepts ?

bikunbodhi
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by bikunbodhi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:53 am

To my shallow understanding, nothing is permanent, except dharma, such as cosmos laws and impermance.

jhanapeacock
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by jhanapeacock » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:15 am

bikunbodhi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:53 am
To my shallow understanding, nothing is permanent, except dharma, such as cosmos laws and impermance.
The dharmakaya is permanent in Mahayana, in dzogchen it´s not.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:36 am

jhanapeacock wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:15 am
bikunbodhi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:53 am
To my shallow understanding, nothing is permanent, except dharma, such as cosmos laws and impermance.
The dharmakaya is permanent in Mahayana, in dzogchen it´s not.
dharmakaya is not something in the object-sense, it's called dimension but it is has no space, etc. not permanent nor impermanent.

afaik in mahayana there are some philosophies, but one should stick to the facts, and the facts until here is that there is no such thing in that can be labeled as permanent. even dharma can be wiped out of existence, even samsara can be emptyed, even perfect full enlightenment can be turned toward causality, etc.
what are you doing

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Supramundane
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by Supramundane » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:44 am

even sunyata is not permanent, as Nagarjuna took pains to explain that even that was empty.

anyone looking for permanence in Buddhism will be disappointed.

even impermanence is not a permanent principle!

i guess impermanence is not what it used to be (sigh).

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:41 am

I think it's important to distinguish between permanent and eternal. Permanent means unchanging because it doesn't depend upon causes and conditions. Our mental continuum, on the other hand, is eternal (it will never cease) but it is changing moment by moment and is therefore impermanent.

Emptiness is permanent because it doesn't depend on causes and conditions, but it is not eternal. The emptiness of my body of yesterday, for example, no longer exists because my body of yesterday no longer exists.

What is permanent in Mahayana Buddhism? all non-affirming negative phenomena. A non-affirming negative is a negative phenomenon realized by a mind that merely eliminates its object of negation without realizing another phenomenon. The absence of a horn on a rabbit’s head is an example of a non-affirming negative because the mind that realizes this merely eliminates the object of negation, a horn on a rabbit’s head, without realizing another phenomenon. All emptinesses are non-affirming negative phenomena as well as unproduced space.

True cessations are also permanent phenomena because they are the emptiness of a mind that has attained the final abandonment of any fault. This means that nirvana is also permanent because it is a true cessation.

It's also said that generic images (the appearing objects of conceptual minds) are permanent because, for as long as they last, they are unchanging.

bikunbodhi
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by bikunbodhi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:04 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:36 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:15 am
bikunbodhi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:53 am
To my shallow understanding, nothing is permanent, except dharma, such as cosmos laws and impermance.
The dharmakaya is permanent in Mahayana, in dzogchen it´s not.
dharmakaya is not something in the object-sense, it's called dimension but it is has no space, etc. not permanent nor impermanent.

afaik in mahayana there are some philosophies, but one should stick to the facts, and the facts until here is that there is no such thing in that can be labeled as permanent. even dharma can be wiped out of existence, even samsara can be emptyed, even perfect full enlightenment can be turned toward causality, etc.
Thank you for your insightful input. I agree that samsara is impermanent. Dharma is possibly impermanent but we probably would never know in our lifetime or with history.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:29 pm

bikunbodhi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:04 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:36 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:15 am

The dharmakaya is permanent in Mahayana, in dzogchen it´s not.
dharmakaya is not something in the object-sense, it's called dimension but it is has no space, etc. not permanent nor impermanent.

afaik in mahayana there are some philosophies, but one should stick to the facts, and the facts until here is that there is no such thing in that can be labeled as permanent. even dharma can be wiped out of existence, even samsara can be emptyed, even perfect full enlightenment can be turned toward causality, etc.
Thank you for your insightful input. I agree that samsara is impermanent. Dharma is possibly impermanent but we probably would never know in our lifetime or with history.
one day before Buddha Shakyamunni's wheel turning was there any buddhadarma? clearly buddhadharma was wiped out from here.

even in sutras there is a span for the dharma to exist.

why you mean possibly?
what are you doing

Simon E.
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:32 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:36 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:15 am
bikunbodhi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:53 am
To my shallow understanding, nothing is permanent, except dharma, such as cosmos laws and impermance.
The dharmakaya is permanent in Mahayana, in dzogchen it´s not.
dharmakaya is not something in the object-sense, it's called dimension but it is has no space, etc. not permanent nor impermanent.

afaik in mahayana there are some philosophies, but one should stick to the facts, and the facts until here is that there is no such thing in that can be labeled as permanent. even dharma can be wiped out of existence, even samsara can be emptyed, even perfect full enlightenment can be turned toward causality, etc.
Samsara is not a place. It cannot be emptied nor filled.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:00 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:32 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:36 am
jhanapeacock wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:15 am

The dharmakaya is permanent in Mahayana, in dzogchen it´s not.
dharmakaya is not something in the object-sense, it's called dimension but it is has no space, etc. not permanent nor impermanent.

afaik in mahayana there are some philosophies, but one should stick to the facts, and the facts until here is that there is no such thing in that can be labeled as permanent. even dharma can be wiped out of existence, even samsara can be emptyed, even perfect full enlightenment can be turned toward causality, etc.
Samsara is not a place. It cannot be emptied nor filled.
haha! an imaginary place, but a place with for cause and effect.

emm is samboghakaya or pureland a real place? hahahahaha
what are you doing

DGA
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by DGA » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:30 pm

AkashicBrother wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 am
some buddhist texts say that things like the dharmakaya and the dharmadatu are permanent and the dharmic laws are constant.
Can you give some examples?

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:39 pm

Dividing it into its various aspects, dharmakāya has eight characteristic qualities — namely, being identical, profound, permanent, unitary, right, pure, lumionous, and linked to the enjoyment body. [...] It is permanent because it is not composite; it is without coming into being or cessation; and it is without beginning, middle, or end.

Sgam-po-pa, Ken Holmes, and Thupten Jinpa. Ornament of Precious Liberation. Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications, 2017, p. 284.

Simon E.
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:09 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:00 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:32 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:36 am


dharmakaya is not something in the object-sense, it's called dimension but it is has no space, etc. not permanent nor impermanent.

afaik in mahayana there are some philosophies, but one should stick to the facts, and the facts until here is that there is no such thing in that can be labeled as permanent. even dharma can be wiped out of existence, even samsara can be emptyed, even perfect full enlightenment can be turned toward causality, etc.
Samsara is not a place. It cannot be emptied nor filled.
haha! an imaginary place, but a place with for cause and effect.

emm is samboghakaya or pureland a real place? hahahahaha
No, not an imaginary place. Not a place at all. Neither is the samboghakaya.

The Pureland is as real as this Saha world.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

AkashicBrother
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by AkashicBrother » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:10 pm

isn the dharmakaya permanent ? this link points to some mahayana canon sutras that stablish this. please avoid antinomian thinking. lets focus on the
texts for a while. https://books.google.com.br/books?id=WX ... ra&f=false

AkashicBrother
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by AkashicBrother » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:13 pm

this link points to some sutras that say the dharmakay is permanent.

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=WX ... ra&f=false

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PSM
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by PSM » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:50 pm

AkashicBrother wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 am
im having diffculty undestanding some mahayana concepts. according to nagarjuna nothing is permanent and everything is empty (sunyata). however some buddhist texts say that things like the dharmakaya and the dharmadatu are permanent and the dharmic laws are constant. does that change with the buddhist school or there is a way to balance such concepts ?
Compound phenomena are impermanent. If something isn't compounded, such as the element of space, it is not impermanent.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"Not practicing dharma is painful" - Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:57 pm

AkashicBrother wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 am
im having diffculty undestanding some mahayana concepts. according to nagarjuna nothing is permanent and everything is empty (sunyata). however some buddhist texts say that things like the dharmakaya and the dharmadatu are permanent and the dharmic laws are constant. does that change with the buddhist school or there is a way to balance such concepts ?
Second turning of the wheel, Third turning of the wheel.

Depending on who you ask though, Mileage may vary.

They are not contradictory BTW.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:20 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:09 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:00 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:32 pm


Samsara is not a place. It cannot be emptied nor filled.
haha! an imaginary place, but a place with for cause and effect.

emm is samboghakaya or pureland a real place? hahahahaha
No, not an imaginary place. Not a place at all. Neither is the samboghakaya.

The Pureland is as real as this Saha world.
i really like this talks <3
what are you doing

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: What is permanent in mahayana?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:28 pm

AkashicBrother wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 am
im having diffculty undestanding some mahayana concepts. according to nagarjuna nothing is permanent and everything is empty (sunyata). however some buddhist texts say that things like the dharmakaya and the dharmadatu are permanent and the dharmic laws are constant. does that change with the buddhist school or there is a way to balance such concepts ?
Tashi delek ,

Nagaryuna is sometimes difficult to understand if emptiness is explained.

Sure there are things in Buddhism which are permanent and that would be Compassion and Wisdom based on Self Awareness.
It are the 2 legs of a Buddha and also we have those qualities inherent present, IF we can be aware of it.

Dharmakaya represents the all encompassing emptiness and can be equaled to Nature.
Dharmakaya is unborn and is never ending, it has no cause so it goes beyond all dualisms.

They say that via Madymika Emptiness , the Dzogchen Emptiness can be understood.......
Some have less difficulties in understanding Dzogchen Emptiness, because it is a very creative entity and not only a negation of dualisms.
The best meditation is no meditation

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