Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa

[conebeckham]

First-that Gampopa paper is wonderful, actually. Perhaps especially for Kagyupas, but then again, maybe not.

Second-Hashang View is not Dzokchen view, I don't think they should be equated. Dzokchen doesn't talk about "stopping conceptualization." It maintains that it is concerned with that which is "beyond mind." but it doesn't explicitly "negate" conceptualization, or so I understand. I'll leave it to others to address this.

As for conceptual mind "realizing" emptiness, well.... I don't think that's correct, though I know that is the "Official Party Line" for some.... Surely, a conceptual understanding, based on analysis, is a good thing. There are different types of "conceptual analysis," as well....

[Malcolm]

Conclusion: any system that abandons conceptuality, seeing it as faulty, will never lead to liberation and enlightenment.

And because you have this opinion, you will never understand Tsongkhapa's actual view.

[Merely Labeled]

Namdrol wrote:
``Tsongkhapa criticized Dzogchen in his commentary on Madhyamaka-avatara for abandoning the two truths.``

Does Dzogchen abandon the two truths ?

M.L.

[conebeckham]

...Depends on how you understand the "two truths," but no, Dzokchen does not abandon the two truths.

[Caz]

...Depends on how you understand the "two truths," but no, Dzokchen does not abandon the two truths.

So I wonder why Tsongkhapa would think this ? Certainly if he had this view then its no wonder he didnt include it in his formulated set of teachings.

[Malcolm]

...Depends on how you understand the "two truths," but no, Dzokchen does not abandon the two truths.

Yes, actually it does.

[Rinchen Dorje]

Does Dzogchen actually "abandon" or does it just "see through/go beyond/transcend?

[Josef]

Does Dzogchen actually "abandon" or does it just "see through/go beyond/transcend?

It abandons.
The two truths aren't really useful in the context of Dzogchen.

[Malcolm]

Does Dzogchen actually "abandon" or does it just "see through/go beyond/transcend?

Discards, abandons.

[Rinchen Dorje]

yeah ok cool..I get it...NON-DUAL contemplation, right?

[Caz]

...Depends on how you understand the "two truths," but no, Dzokchen does not abandon the two truths.

Yes, actually it does.

Makes sense why he wouldnt teach it then or practise it.

[Adamantine]

...Depends on how you understand the "two truths," but no, Dzokchen does not abandon the two truths.

Yes, actually it does.

Makes sense why he wouldnt teach it then or practise it.

Why is that?

[Josef]

...Depends on how you understand the "two truths," but no, Dzokchen does not abandon the two truths.

Yes, actually it does.

Makes sense why he wouldnt teach it then or practise it.

It certainly makes sense that he wouldn't teach Dzogchen.
Teaching Dzogchen would probably have clashed with the main direction of his movement and emphasis.
I wouldn't be so sure about his personal practice though.

[Tsongkhapafan]

I just need to quote from one of my previous posts:

Chandrakirti says in Guide to Middle Way (Madhyamakavatara):

Those who are outside the path of Master Nagarjuna
Have no means of peace
They depart from the truths of convention and Thatness
And, because they depart from them, cannot attain liberation.

Any system that abandons the two truths will not lead to liberation and enlightenment, just as any system that eschews conceptuality will not either because conceptual analysis is needed to arrive at a correct understanding of the two truths, and their profound union, without contradiction.

[Caz]

Makes sense why he wouldnt teach it then or practise it.[/quote]
It certainly makes sense that he wouldn't teach Dzogchen.
Teaching Dzogchen would probably have clashed with the main direction of his movement and emphasis.
I wouldn't be so sure about his personal practice though.[/quote]

If one such as Je Rinpoche didnt think it worth transmitting to students would he use his time practising it as well ?

[Adamantine]

I just need to quote from one of my previous posts:

Chandrakirti says in Guide to Middle Way (Madhyamakavatara):

Those who are outside the path of Master Nagarjuna
Have no means of peace
They depart from the truths of convention and Thatness
And, because they depart from them, cannot attain liberation.

Any system that abandons the two truths will not lead to liberation and enlightenment, just as any system that eschews conceptuality will not either because conceptual analysis is needed to arrive at a correct understanding of the two truths, and their profound union, without contradiction.

Well, Shakyamuni was outside the path of Nagarjuna, having lived before him. Not only that but he didn't teach the two truths, the two truths were interpreted from his teachings. Similarly, there is a rich tradition of reinterpreting the two truths themselves, especially when moving beyond the sutra system.

Speaking of Dzogchen, the great master Longchen Rabjam who composed many texts that appear to abandon the two truths, also in the 18th chapter of his Treasury of Wish Fulfilment provides a unique interpretation which in the words of HHDL "begins with a definition of the ultimate truth as the fundamental, innate nature, and the conventional truth as adventitious phenomenon. In other words, what is natural or innate is called ultimate truth, whereas what comes about newly because of adventitious conditions is held to be conventional truth." And His Holiness continues pointing out that this strategy of reinterpreting the two truths also happens in the Sarma schools in the context of Highest Yoga Tantra, such as in the Guhyasamaja Tantra "where ultimate truth is spoken of in terms of clear light, and conventional truth in terms of illusory body. Presented like this, the definition and meaning of the two truths differs totally from that expounded in the sutra system." His Holiness then goes into greater detail, you can read for yourself on page 141 of this text

HH also points out that "Longchen Rabjam proposes numerous methods of classifying the two fundamental truths"

[Pema Rigdzin]

I just need to quote from one of my previous posts:

Chandrakirti says in Guide to Middle Way (Madhyamakavatara):

Those who are outside the path of Master Nagarjuna
Have no means of peace
They depart from the truths of convention and Thatness
And, because they depart from them, cannot attain liberation.

Any system that abandons the two truths will not lead to liberation and enlightenment, just as any system that eschews conceptuality will not either because conceptual analysis is needed to arrive at a correct understanding of the two truths, and their profound union, without contradiction.

Tsongkhapafan,
From the point of view of sutra, what you've said above seems to be true because within the sutra system there aren't any methods for directly introducing the primordial state just as it is. In the sutra system, therefore, one has no choice but to work with analysis and conceptual mind because that is what sutra is working with. It is for individuals who karmically are receptive to that approach. For this reason, teachings aimed at people who are drawn to the sutra system will say things like you've quoted.

But Dzogchen is different. It is going directly to the actual nature of each individual. It is not gradually approaching the natural state or focusing on ideas about it. It is making the natural state evident immediately, nakedly, without contrivance. It's more like enabling one to reveal that for oneself. For that reason, Dzogchen is presenting the true nature of mind and phenomena according to a primordially enlightened POV because, again, it is making the primordial state evident to the individual immediately, just as it is.

You must remember that even according to sutra, a Buddha simultaneously knows the absolute nature of all phenomena and the conventional appearances of all phenomena, so they are not having to alternate between the two and they are not conceptualizing. They just have knowledge. Even according to sutra, the two truths are just an expedient tool. Buddhas have no notion of two truths. But for beings working with conceptual mind, the only way to practice is alternating between being in relative duality vision (while at best considering the empty nature) or being in emptiness free of elaboration. No simultaneity is possible if conceptual mind is what one is working with. But Dzogchen is not working with conceptual mind. It is working with the primordial state in which, like a Buddha, appearances and emptiness and wisdom are nondual. So that is why Dzogchen can be said to abandon the two truths. In reality, there is only a concept of two truths, and there is really only the true nature as it is.

[heart]

I just need to quote from one of my previous posts:

Chandrakirti says in Guide to Middle Way (Madhyamakavatara):

Those who are outside the path of Master Nagarjuna
Have no means of peace
They depart from the truths of convention and Thatness
And, because they depart from them, cannot attain liberation.

Any system that abandons the two truths will not lead to liberation and enlightenment, just as any system that eschews conceptuality will not either because conceptual analysis is needed to arrive at a correct understanding of the two truths, and their profound union, without contradiction.

The Three Principal Aspects of the Path
by Je Tsong Kha pa

I will explain as well as I can
The essential meaning of all the Conqueror's scriptures,
The path praised by the excellent Conqueror children,
The port for the fortunate wishing liberation.

Whoever are not attached to the pleasures of mundane existence,
Whoever strive in order to make leisure and fortune worthwhile,
Whoever are inclined to the path pleasing the Conqueror Buddha,
Those fortunate ones should listen with a clear mind.

Without a complete thought definitely to leave cyclic existence
There is no way to stop seeking pleasurable effects in the ocean of existence.
Also, craving cyclic existence thoroughly binds the embodied.
Therefore, in the beginning determination to leave cyclic existence should be sought.

Leisure and fortune are difficult to find
And life has no duration.
Through familiarity with this,
Emphasis on the appearances of this life is reversed.

If you think again and again
About deeds and their inevitable effects
And the sufferings of cyclic existence,
The emphasis on the appearances
Of future lives will be reversed.

If, having meditated thus, you do not generate admiration
Even for an instant for the prosperity of cyclic existence,
And if an attitude seeking liberation arises day and night,
Then the thought definitely to leave cyclic existence has been generated.

Also, if this thought definitely to leave cyclic existence
Is not conjoined with generation of a complete aspiration to highest enlightenment,
It does not become a cause of the marvellous bliss of unsurpassed enlightenment.
Thus, the intelligent should generate the supreme altruistic intention to become enlightened.

All ordinary beings are carried by the continuum of the four powerful currents,
Are tied with the tight bonds of actions difficult to oppose,
Have entered into the iron cage of apprehending self (inherent existence),
Are completely beclouded with the thick darkness of ignorance,

Are born into cyclic existence limitlessly, and in their births
Are tortured ceaselessly by the three sufferings.
Thinking thus of the condition of mothers who have come to such a state,
Generate the supreme altruistic intention to become enlightened.

If you do not have the wisdom realising the way things are,
Even though you have developed the thought definitely to leave cyclic existence
And the altruistic intention, the root of cyclic existence cannot be cut.
Therefore work at the means of realising dependent-arising.

Whoever, seeing the cause and effect of all phenomena
Of cyclic existence and nirvana infallible,
Thoroughly destroys the mode of misapprehension of those objects [as inherently existent]
Has entered on a path that is pleasing to Buddha.

As long as the two, realisation of appearances -
the infallibility of dependent-arising - and the realisation of emptiness -
The non-assertion [of inherent existence] -
Seem to be separate, there is still no realisation
Of the thought of Shakyamuni Buddha.

When [the two realisations exist] simultaneously without alternation
And when from only seeing dependent-arising as infallible,
Definite knowledge entirely destroys the mode of apprehension
[of the conception of inherent existence],
then the analysis of the view [of reality] is complete.

Further, the extreme of [inherent] existence is excluded
[by knowledge of the nature] of appearances
[existing only as nominal designations],
And the extreme of [total] non-existence is excluded
[by knowledge of the nature] of emptiness
[as the complete absence of inherent existence and not the absence of nominal existence].

If within emptiness the appearance of cause and effect is known
You will not be captivated by extreme views.
When you have realised thus just as they are
The essentials of the three principal aspects of the path,
Resort to solitude and generate the power of effort.
Accomplish quickly your final aim, my child.

[extracted from Kindness Clarity and Insight, Dalai Lama XIV, 1981, Snow Lion, USA; translated by Jeffrey Hopkins, University of Virginia.]

[Josef]

If one such as Je Rinpoche didnt think it worth transmitting to students would he use his time practising it as well ?

What one deems appropriate for their students might not always be the same as their own practice.
I wouldnt attempt to presume what his personal practice was, but I certainly wouldnt exclude any possibilities, especially Dzogchen.

[conebeckham]

One has to keep in mind that a major impetus in Tsong Khapa's "Reform Movement" was an emphasis on vinaya. I've read scholars who have argued that because of this concern with ethical conduct, Tsong Khapa's unique interpretation of the Two Truths, in particular the "mode of existence" of the relative truth, was stressed. In addition, it seems to me that if one posits some sort of mode of existence of seeming reality, or appearances, phenomena, whatever, it could follow that conceptual mind could apprehend Emptiness, in such a system.