Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

The best place for discussion of current events. News about Buddhists and Buddhism is particularly welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:00 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/12/opin ... ction.html

Bernie laid out the map. Just cut to the basics that affect all of us and hammer, hammer, hammer: medicare for all, affordable college, infrastructure paid for with taxes on the rich, fix immigration (stop with the abolish ICE crap), and adopt what's working with the economy - yeah, redoing NAFTA and resetting trade with China and Europe is the right move.

Cut the histrionics that play for spectacle and cheap thrills of the choir.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28522
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:46 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:00 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/12/opin ... ction.html

Bernie laid out the map. Just cut to the basics that affect all of us and hammer, hammer, hammer: medicare for all, affordable college, infrastructure paid for with taxes on the rich, fix immigration (stop with the abolish ICE crap), and adopt what's working with the economy - yeah, redoing NAFTA and resetting trade with China and Europe is the right move.

Cut the histrionics that play for spectacle and cheap thrills of the choir.
Bret Stephens is just the NYT's pet "conservative" op ed guy.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28522
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:47 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:00 pm
redoing NAFTA and resetting trade with China and Europe is the right move.
This is an error, IMO.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:46 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:00 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/12/opin ... ction.html

Bernie laid out the map. Just cut to the basics that affect all of us and hammer, hammer, hammer: medicare for all, affordable college, infrastructure paid for with taxes on the rich, fix immigration (stop with the abolish ICE crap), and adopt what's working with the economy - yeah, redoing NAFTA and resetting trade with China and Europe is the right move.

Cut the histrionics that play for spectacle and cheap thrills of the choir.
Bret Stephens is just the NYT's pet "conservative" op ed guy.
Maybe. Come election day we'll see if he has a point. I suspect he does.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:47 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:00 pm
redoing NAFTA and resetting trade with China and Europe is the right move.
This is an error, IMO.
Maybe. We will see.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

PeterC
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:19 pm

Bret Stephens is a hack, but he’s not totally wrong. The republican leadership is absolutely crystal clear about their objectives and will compromise any and all principles to achieve them. Until such time as the Democrats have the same clarity they will continue to lose.

Unfortunately for both the external challenges that the US faces do not admit of any simple, slogan-friendly solutions. The instability of US domestic politics make it uniquely unable to address the trade and security issues of the next few decades.

User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Nemo » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:31 pm

D or R doesn't matter. Stop being a sucker and falling for this good cop, bad cop routine. The tick tock of parties is public theater. The elites always get what they want.
Image

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:26 pm

PeterC wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:19 pm
Bret Stephens is a hack, but he’s not totally wrong. The republican leadership is absolutely crystal clear about their objectives and will compromise any and all principles to achieve them. Until such time as the Democrats have the same clarity they will continue to lose.
You're not saying Democrats should be ready to compromise any and all principles, too, are you? I think this spastic resistance is what it looks like when Democrats try to go to the mattresses.
Unfortunately for both the external challenges that the US faces do not admit of any simple, slogan-friendly solutions. The instability of US domestic politics make it uniquely unable to address the trade and security issues of the next few decades.
True.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:27 pm

Nemo wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:31 pm
D or R doesn't matter. Stop being a sucker and falling for this good cop, bad cop routine. The tick tock of parties is public theater. The elites always get what they want.
Yes. Some of us are trying to stop this.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

PeterC
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:19 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:26 pm
PeterC wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:19 pm
Bret Stephens is a hack, but he’s not totally wrong. The republican leadership is absolutely crystal clear about their objectives and will compromise any and all principles to achieve them. Until such time as the Democrats have the same clarity they will continue to lose.
You're not saying Democrats should be ready to compromise any and all principles, too, are you? I think this spastic resistance is what it looks like when Democrats try to go to the mattresses.
I wouldn’t offer an opinion on what they should do, simply because it all seems fairly futile at this point. But the democrats at all levels need to face up to reality. They need to appreciate the range of options a minority party has for retaining power over the majority, and realize that the GOP would happily resort to most of these tactics. The democrats put principles ahead of results, and half the time can’t even agree among themselves on what those principles should be. So they continue to lose. The best they can hope for in the midterms is taking back the house. In the scheme of things that means little when the other side has the executive, is packing all levels of the federal judiciary, and the legislature was in any case gridlocked.

User avatar
Wayfarer
Global Moderator
Posts: 4168
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:59 am

I'm Aussie, but many of us are really hoping the Democrats do well at the polls in November as Trump is widely disliked here (aside from amongst our own alt-right types who do exist). I take the point about the democrats' many weaknesses, but it is also true that Bret Stephens in one of the NYT's token conservatives. (Actually I have always rather like the other two, Douthat and Brooks, overall, the latter in particular ever since an OP on The Neural Buddhists many years ago, which really spoke to me.)

Anyway, it does seem true the Dems have no real drawcard. Bernie is a terrific person but clearly too far to the left to be a realistic prospect. They need a celebrity or someone who can become a celebrity, sad as that may be. But most of all they need to stop trying to fuel their entire movement on a sense of righteous outrage and simply stand up for basic policies.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:47 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:59 am
stop trying to fuel their entire movement on a sense of righteous outrage and simply stand up for basic policies.
That captures it.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17984
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:43 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:59 am
Bernie is a terrific person but clearly too far to the left to be a realistic prospect.
You know this world is done for when health care, infrastructure and education are considered left wing...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:43 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:59 am
Bernie is a terrific person but clearly too far to the left to be a realistic prospect.
You know this world is done for when health care, infrastructure and education are considered left wing...
Amen.

The Democratic party actually has adopted these platforms... whether mainline Democrats will actually fight for this is not promising. At least putting these things on the platform is something...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
justsit
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by justsit » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:18 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:11 pm
The Democratic party actually has adopted these platforms... whether mainline Democrats will actually fight for this is not promising. At least putting these things on the platform is something...
Promoting pie-in-the-sky ideas like free college and free health care for everyone will not play in Peoria. The Democrats need to come up with 1) a solid platform of policies and programs that address the concerns of most Americans without leaning too far left and 2) a leader who can galvanize the majority of Dems. If they can come across as rational, don't get sucked into the media mayhem, and waste time rebutting the tweetstorm, they might pick up some seats. Maybe.

While I personally support many of Bernie's proposals, I am firmly convinced that if he runs again as a third party candidate, he will once again be a spoiler. His ideas are too radical to attract any middle of the road and/or traditional conservative Republicans, even if they are disenchanted with Trump.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:24 pm

Universal healthcare is not pie-in-the-sky. A clear majority of Americans are in favor of it.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/62- ... -poll-says

And even a conservative think tank found that universal healthcare would actually cost less than the insane frankenstein system we have now.
https://www.thenation.com/article/thank ... ves-money/

Affordable college is different than free college. Some states do offer free tuition - NY offers free state college tuition to full time students from families making less than $125K. Kentucky actually passed a free community college bill which the governor then gutted by limiting it to 5 certificate degrees (not associates). And many state colleges and universities are still very affordable, though Republicans are inexplicably focused on defunding college education at every turn. Actually the big problems with student debt are from expensive private 4 year schools that students went to out of vanity, or from for profit schools that take money but don't actually benefit students. Basically, students have to realize that while 4 years at Oberlin might be an enriching personal experience, their $180k Women's Studies degree is not going to be worth much in the job market, and the government needs to hold for profit schools accountable. (Notwithstanding, we need to have a serious discussion in our country about college and its place in our society). Colleges are as worthy of blame in saddling students with debt, and the inflation of tuition and grades needs to be addressed.

Infrastructure is probably the most controversial issue that would directly benefit working class Americans in a positive way. Opposition is grounded in the terror Republicans feel at the prospect of another generation of Americans seeing that public works are actually a good thing. The hardest part would be paying for it - raising taxes is a tough sell.

I will venture this: the Democrats need to stop seeming like they want to have free and open borders. That is killing them in Peoria. Immigration needs to be fixed. Everyone knows this. This is purely anecdotal, but in talking to up by the bootstrap Republicans, when the immigration issue is distinguished from the hate mongering, proposing that some worker program needs to be set up for immigrant labor and something needs to be done with long time illegals who have more or less paid taxes and played by the rules, I've found people tend to agree. We just need to have a serious conversation about this and deal with it.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
justsit
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by justsit » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:24 pm
Universal healthcare is not pie-in-the-sky. A clear majority of Americans are in favor of it.

And even a conservative think tank found that universal healthcare would actually cost less than the insane frankenstein system we have now.https://www.thenation.com/article/thank ... ves-money/

Affordable college is different than free college...
Oh I totally agree, as an RN I think quality healthcare is one of the fundamentals that should be provided by government; I'm in favor and most people I know are as well. And yes, the current "system" is broken, for sure.

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of, "Is this something that realistically can be addressed in the next two years so we have a solid chance to remove Trump?"

My father taught me that it's usually possible in life to have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want. I think if we really want Trump out, some things will have to go on the back burner. Yes, as I indicated, programs and policies that provide for the basic needs (not wants) of the majority should take priority. But we can't provide for all the people, all the time, without massive shifts in the US economy that IMO, are not realistically going to happen any time soon. If we don't have the ability to pass legislation, it's all moot. And as long as we have adversarial relationships with our fellow citizens, it may be moot anyway. No answers. :thinking: :toilet:

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6386
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:12 pm

justsit wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm
Oh I totally agree, as an RN I think quality healthcare is one of the fundamentals that should be provided by government; I'm in favor and most people I know are as well. And yes, the current "system" is broken, for sure.

I'm looking at it more from the perspective of, "Is this something that realistically can be addressed in the next two years so we have a solid chance to remove Trump?"

My father taught me that it's usually possible in life to have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want. I think if we really want Trump out, some things will have to go on the back burner. Yes, as I indicated, programs and policies that provide for the basic needs (not wants) of the majority should take priority. But we can't provide for all the people, all the time, without massive shifts in the US economy that IMO, are not realistically going to happen any time soon. If we don't have the ability to pass legislation, it's all moot. And as long as we have adversarial relationships with our fellow citizens, it may be moot anyway. No answers. :thinking: :toilet:
Hm. The universe must be shaped like a giant monkey wrench because reality has a way of snuffing grand plans. LOL

You're right.

Mid-Terms usually have lower turnout and voters tend to be party loyalists. Independents don't feel as motivated.

The argument in favor of all this tribalism may well be about turning out the bases, getting them so enraged they make sure to vote, rather than constructively try to persuade the independent swing vote.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17984
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:21 pm

justsit wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm
I'm looking at it more from the perspective of, "Is this something that realistically can be addressed in the next two years so we have a solid chance to remove Trump?"
You think that the only way to remove Trump is to replace him with a Democratic Party candidate that is his political twin???
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
Posts: 1363
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:21 pm
justsit wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm
I'm looking at it more from the perspective of, "Is this something that realistically can be addressed in the next two years so we have a solid chance to remove Trump?"
You think that the only way to remove Trump is to replace him with a Democratic Party candidate that is his political twin???
Maybe not twin but more inbred cousin.

Post Reply

Return to “News & Current Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: shaunc, Wayfarer and 53 guests