No end to samsara?

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:27 pm

Temicco wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:42 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:27 pm
How can it be beginningless without being endless. I don't think there is anything unusual in saying that samsara is endless.
I don't see how that follows. So long as it is conditioned, which it's said to be, then it can have an end.
Beginnings and endings are characteristic of compound things, and by definition are relative. Samsara, being only nirvana seen from a place of confusion, is without an end, middle, beginning, constituent parts which really exist, etc. That's my understanding.
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Simon E.
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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:27 am

Substitute 'gravity' for samsara. If the conditions arise gravity is operant.

Gravity is essential for flight. Flight does not alter the potentiality for gravity.

Just so, samsara is always potentially the case. Buddha-nature is always the case.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:53 pm

Those who think that illusion may dissolve on its own should be aware that samsara is renowned for being endless.

Sgam-po-pa, Holmes, K. & Jinpa, T., 2017. Ornament of precious liberation, Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications, p. 11.

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:39 pm

Temicco wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:19 pm
There is a text in Pakmo Drupa's records (zhus lan nyi shu pa) that says the following:
'khor ba la thogs ma yod dam med zhus pas/ 'khor ba la thog med cing gting mtha' med gsung/ khams gsum phyi btsan dang gang zag sgo gtsan gnyis ka la 'khor ba'i nang du ma 'khrul ba de yin bya ba gang yang med gsung/ 'on kyang gang zag sgo btsan la lhan cig skyes pa de ngos zin cing sangs rgyas pa'i dus ni yod do/
Which seems to be saying:
When asked whether samsara has a beginning or not: "It's said that samsara is beginningless and endless. In the general teachings of the three realms and the particular teachings of the individual, it's said that there is absolutuely nobody in samsara who becomes unconfused. However, in the particular teachings of the individual, when one recognizes the innate, there is the time of Buddhahood..."
Am I reading this properly? If so, what is this a reference to? I have not yet encountered the idea that samsara is endless.
Tashi delek,

Mind is unborn, mind does not have an end and is causeless.
In Mind there is a dormant very tiny obscurity which causes / can cause duality.
Following this causes to be active in the worlds of "illusion"

Because Mind is endless and goes beyond, one can be stucked in Samsara for endless times. Here we cannot measure in time, because of the endless Mind who accompanies the illusionary bodies / realms.
Therefore it is a chance to be liberated regarding illusion, but that is again an utmost rarity.

- Can then Samsara be emptied ?
- Can Nature be emptied ?
- Can the way back if the Mother meets the Son again be lost in future illusion ?

Guess the answer is no for the first 2
Guess the possibility is again there in the endless times without beginning, that the tiny particle of illusion goes again after illusion, or IF that tiny inherent dwelling particle can be deleted, then Samsara can be emptied. (Utopia?)
The best meditation is no meditation

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WuMing
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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by WuMing » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:19 pm

no end ... there was not even a beginning.
今以佛眼觀之佛與眾生同住解脫之床。無此無彼無二平等。
Now, observing with the eye of the Buddha, both the Buddha and ordinary beings are in the same liberated state. There is neither this nor that: there is only non-duality and identity.
- 空海 Kūkai in Unjigi 吽字義 The Meaning of the Letter Hūṃ
- Kūkai on the Philosophy of Language by Takagi Shingen and Dreitlein Eijō
_______
Śrī Singha said to Padmasambhava:
Since buddhas and sentient beings are inseparable and the same, it is necessary to respect all sentient beings as being on the same level with the buddhas. Can you?
- translated by Malcolm N. Smith

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:25 pm

WuMing wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:19 pm
no end ... there was not even a beginning.
Something which is without a cause has also no beginning, so no end.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by TrimePema » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:26 am

Temicco wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:19 pm
There is a text in Pakmo Drupa's records (zhus lan nyi shu pa) that says the following:
'khor ba la thogs ma yod dam med zhus pas/ 'khor ba la thog med cing gting mtha' med gsung/ khams gsum phyi btsan dang gang zag sgo gtsan gnyis ka la 'khor ba'i nang du ma 'khrul ba de yin bya ba gang yang med gsung/ 'on kyang gang zag sgo btsan la lhan cig skyes pa de ngos zin cing sangs rgyas pa'i dus ni yod do/
Which seems to be saying:
When asked whether samsara has a beginning or not: "It's said that samsara is beginningless and endless. In the general teachings of the three realms and the particular teachings of the individual, it's said that there is absolutuely nobody in samsara who becomes unconfused. However, in the particular teachings of the individual, when one recognizes the innate, there is the time of Buddhahood..."
Am I reading this properly? If so, what is this a reference to? I have not yet encountered the idea that samsara is endless.

"In the general teachings of the three realms and the particular teachings of the individual, it's said that there is absolutuely nobody in samsara who becomes unconfused. However, in the particular teachings of the individual, when one recognizes the innate, there is the time of Buddhahood..."

This passage rhetorically implies the exact question you've asked.
I advise that you simply read further (and re-read!) until the answer is clear (meaning you are certain of the interpretation you've come to). Then, take that answer and go ask a teacher about it and see what they tell you.

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Aemilius » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:32 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:20 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:54 am
If sentient beings are numberless, then samsara is endless
Winter is numberless, but it ends.
The reason why winter is numberless, is that ultimately, the concept of numbers doesn't apply, because it's a season.
So, it's absurd.
You can say winter has a certain number of days, but then you are simply talking about days.
You can say winter has numerical temperatures, but then you are merely referring to a thermometer.
You can say that winter has an uncountable number of snow flakes, but that's talking about weather.

Likewise, you can describe sentient beings as this or that, just as one describes winter,
having this characteristic or that quality, but that's all relative.
We can say that sentient beings are infinite, yet upon closer examination,
not a single one of them has inherent existence.
From the perspective of samsaric existence, we conceptualize things that way.
But from the perspective of an enlightened being who sees things as they truly are,
beginning and end are, in a sense, absurd.
If we take the geologic time scale as the common truth, where is the beginning of "samsara"?
There were no "infinite number" of beings on Earth 540 million years ago.
There were no days, no winter or summer before the formation of the solar system. How did time exist then?
Geologic time and the events that occur within it are not absurd.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by seeker242 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:57 am

How can samsara end without enlightenment? If it can't, then you could easily say it's endless.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Temicco » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:02 pm

I'm starting to think that the underlying (rhetorical) idea is that Buddhahood doesn't consist of "ending" samsara, but rather consists of not distinguishing between samsara and nirvana, as is taught in e.g. Zen. Anyway, I don't want to engender too much speculation...
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by DGA » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:55 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:20 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:54 am
If sentient beings are numberless, then samsara is endless
Winter is numberless, but it ends.
The reason why winter is numberless, is that ultimately, the concept of numbers doesn't apply, because it's a season.
So, it's absurd.
You can say winter has a certain number of days, but then you are simply talking about days.
You can say winter has numerical temperatures, but then you are merely referring to a thermometer.
You can say that winter has an uncountable number of snow flakes, but that's talking about weather.

Likewise, you can describe sentient beings as this or that, just as one describes winter,
having this characteristic or that quality, but that's all relative.
We can say that sentient beings are infinite, yet upon closer examination,
not a single one of them has inherent existence.
From the perspective of samsaric existence, we conceptualize things that way.
But from the perspective of an enlightened being who sees things as they truly are,
beginning and end are, in a sense, absurd.

Similarly, darkness is infinite
until someone turns on the lights.
.
.
.
I don't follow your reasoning in this post, but I do agree that samsara is absurd.

I probably made a mistake in conflating a qualitative with a quantitative in the post you are responding to. Here's a free jazz version of some important vows I repeat from time to time.

Sentient beings are numberless. I vow to liberate them.
Afflictions are inexhaustible. I vow to exhaust them.
Dharmas are boundless. I vow to master them.
The Buddha-Way is unsurpassable. I vow to attain it.

Carry on.

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Bristollad » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:01 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:32 am
If we take the geologic time scale as the common truth, where is the beginning of "samsara"?
Before.
Aemilius wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:32 am
There were no "infinite number" of beings on Earth 540 million years ago.
And in the rest of this universe?
Image
Aemilius wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:32 am
There were no days, no winter or summer before the formation of the solar system. How did time exist then?
Buddhism doesn't define time in terms of days, winter, summer etc.
it’s an interval that is imputed or measured in the continuum of the occurrence of a sequence of cause and effect. That’s very important actually. There’s a sequence of cause and effect that occurs. And what is time? It’s the interval that can be measured between the cause and the effect. Do you follow that? So it’s integrally associated with phenomena that are happening. It’s not something that exists independently of that.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... re-of-time
Aemilius wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:32 am
Geologic time and the events that occur within it are not absurd.
Agreed.

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Aemilius » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:54 am

Who or what experiences time, for example shortly after the big bang? Is there time if nobody experiences it ?

There is time that is measured on the basis of the electrons changing their energy levels in atoms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock
Time depends on something taking place or happening, like the earth going around the sun, or earth rotating on its axis, or the moon moving on its track in the sky, etc..
Soon after the big bang there is time based on events or changes in atoms, in the modern theory of physics. This is time in retrospect.

According to the Dharma there is also time in the Deva realms, which should take place in a different tempo or scale than the earthly time. According to the Sutras there are the beings at the beginning of the kalpa, before the sun and moon appear, who have self-lumious bodies, who exist in this state for a very long time.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Vasana » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:01 am

kirtu wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:00 pm
Temicco wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:17 pm
Really, the question is just, what rationale is there behind the idea that samsara doesn't end?

Clearly people become unconfused. As for individual samsara, that is how it is framed in basically every tradition. There are many teachings that discuss how certain practices etc. will end samsara and bring about Buddhahood.
There will always be deluded beings because there are an infinite number of beings some of which will not attain enlightenment.

Kirt
Is this a general statement or a view particular to Ati? I remember seeing something similar before but hadn't looked in to it.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:12 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:32 am
If we take the geologic time scale as the common truth, where is the beginning of "samsara"?
There were no "infinite number" of beings on Earth 540 million years ago.
There were no days, no winter or summer before the formation of the solar system. How did time exist then?
Geologic time and the events that occur within it are not absurd.
DGA wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:54 am
I don't follow your reasoning in this post, but I do agree that samsara is absurd.
The point I'm making is, don't look at the concepts of "beginningless" and "endless" mathematically.
That's the mistake which blocks understanding of it as a viable concept.
Where does a circle begin?
When does a day begin? It doesn't. It's just the rotation of the Earth.

It's not about how many sentient beings there are, because a sentient being has no intrinsic reality to begin with.
Also, samsara doesn't have anything to do with geologic time, which is merely a conceptual way of looking at how many times the earth goes around the sun. That only has to do with Earth.

Look at it this way:
Who are you today, at this very moment?
When did you start being that person who you are today? Yesterday?
Where is the point of separation between who you were yesterday and who you are today?
Did you start to be the person you were when you were conceived? Or born?
Every cell in your body that was there at your birth is gone now. That baby is all dead.
So, when did "you" start? That is what is meant by "beginningless" samsara. It hasn't anything to do with geology.
because the "you" that is imagined and experienced as the self has no reality to it. No intrinsic existence.
The mind imagines"you" one second after another, year after year.
How many "yous" have been imagined? That is what is meant by infinite beings.
But all of those "yous" are gone in a flash with a single moment of perfect realization.
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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by tatpurusa » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:06 pm

Beginning, middle and end are divisions of time based on observation of transformation and causality.
These are all features of samsara.
Time is the way the ordinary mind works. It pertains to samsara.

Nirvana has no cause and causality, neither time. Therefore it does not "happen" after awakening/illumination.
Neither is it eternal. It is timeless. Time has no meaning whatsoever to nirvana. Time is a concept, the most essential
feature of the mind.
It is time that lets the mind order appearances, phenomena, concepts and see causality. Without time there is no (ordinary) mind.
The "nature of mind" (rigpa) is timeless and non-conceptual.
Samsara is illusion. Time is the root of the ordinary mind creating all other illusions.
Therefore time is the mother of all illusions.

tp.

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Aemilius » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:47 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:12 pm
Aemilius wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:32 am
If we take the geologic time scale as the common truth, where is the beginning of "samsara"?
There were no "infinite number" of beings on Earth 540 million years ago.
There were no days, no winter or summer before the formation of the solar system. How did time exist then?
Geologic time and the events that occur within it are not absurd.
DGA wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:54 am
I don't follow your reasoning in this post, but I do agree that samsara is absurd.
The point I'm making is, don't look at the concepts of "beginningless" and "endless" mathematically.
That's the mistake which blocks understanding of it as a viable concept.
Where does a circle begin?
When does a day begin? It doesn't. It's just the rotation of the Earth.

It's not about how many sentient beings there are, because a sentient being has no intrinsic reality to begin with.
Also, samsara doesn't have anything to do with geologic time, which is merely a conceptual way of looking at how many times the earth goes around the sun. That only has to do with Earth.

Look at it this way:
Who are you today, at this very moment?
When did you start being that person who you are today? Yesterday?
Where is the point of separation between who you were yesterday and who you are today?
Did you start to be the person you were when you were conceived? Or born?
Every cell in your body that was there at your birth is gone now. That baby is all dead.
So, when did "you" start? That is what is meant by "beginningless" samsara. It hasn't anything to do with geology.
because the "you" that is imagined and experienced as the self has no reality to it. No intrinsic existence.
The mind imagines"you" one second after another, year after year.
How many "yous" have been imagined? That is what is meant by infinite beings.
But all of those "yous" are gone in a flash with a single moment of perfect realization.
.
.
.
"Samsara" is a word of human language, a concept in a human culture. Hence the word "samsara" and the view that evolved it have some kind of a beginning. There is a time when they didn't exist. At least in the modern view of history, geology and astronomy that is so.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by tatpurusa » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:31 am

Aemilius wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:47 am
"Samsara" is a word of human language, a concept in a human culture. Hence the word "samsara" and the view that evolved it have some kind of a beginning. There is a time when they didn't exist. At least in the modern view of history, geology and astronomy that is so.
Time itself is an illusion created by the basic function of the ordinary mind. This function creates the illusion of samsara.

tp.

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Aemilius » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:05 am

In that case Arhats, Bodhisattvas or Buddhas would not perceive time, would not perceive past, present or future, but that clearly is not the case.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Re: No end to samsara?

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:09 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:25 pm
WuMing wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:19 pm
no end ... there was not even a beginning.
Something which is without a cause has also no beginning, so no end.
Samsara is not without a cause. The cause of Samsara is part of the four noble truths.

The point is that unless one removes the cause with the nidana of the path, samsara will never end of its own.

There is no first cause that can be identified. No beginning, because it is an endless cycle.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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