Guru Rinpoche As...

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:02 pm

Sennin wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:47 pm

It's explained in the text TEACHINGS ON THE PRACTICE OF DORJE TROLOD
Saw that it was already discussed here aboard.
viewtopic.php?t=9816


Herewith i am enough informed about the aspect of D.T. and am happy to know that Drollo is considered something like the essence of Kilaya, what was seen by some here as wrong.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:43 pm

Sennin wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:47 pm
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:49 pm
The tiger is the Bon deity Ati Muwer.
Not according to anything I've ever seen. I think Samten Lingpa was clear the tigress (definitely female not male, unlike Bon sky god) is Tashi Chidren, one of the five main consorts of Guru Rinpoche.
Do have a textual source for that claim?
It's explained in the text TEACHINGS ON THE PRACTICE OF DORJE TROLOD
Yes, but I wanted a textual source, not just an oral teaching that contradicts ever other text and oral teaching I've ever read/received.
In the teachings you quote, which I think I listened to online when they were first given, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says, "In the kingdom of Shang Shung, the three most important guardians were called Shang Shung Gonpo Namsum. One of these three was called Ati Muwer and was extremely powerful. When Guru Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet and started to spread Vajrayana teaching, Ati Muwer wanted to destroy him. So he manifested as a gigantic tiger and attacked Guru Padmasambhava. But Guru Padmasambhava jumped on the tiger's back and manifested as Dorje Trolod. From then on Ati Muwer became the seat of Dorje Trolod. This is the story."

A textual source would explain where this was written and what terma this account comes from. There are a few problems with the story. Most obviously, the sex of the tiger. In every terma I've ever seen, the tiger is female. The Tigress is not some male guardian that's creating problems and is subjugated (the riding being a sign of the subjugation) but the consort or yum of rDo rje Gro lod, blissfully flying through space. The other issue concerns Ati Muwer. The Ati Muwer found in Bon as far as i've seen is nothing like a wrathful guardian local spirit. He's a peaceful lama, lineage originator figure.

That's why a textual source and something carrying a bit more weight, like the account of a terton who found a rdo rje gro lod related terma would be useful. Samten Lingpa discovered a number of termas including a namthar of Dorje Drolo and a namthar of Yeshe Tsogyal. In his Tsogyal namthar he says,
"That same evening, inconceivable signs occurred. The Guru arose as Dorje Drolo (united with Tsogyal in the form of Ekadzati and with Khyidren transformed into the tigress). He subjugated Tibet and its four surrounding regions, along with all the gods and spirits of a million universes. Riding upon the tigress, into which the girl Khyidren had been transformed, the Guru in union with Yeshe Tsogyal remained absorbed in the samadhi of Vajrakila. He was brandishing in his right hand a nine-pointed vajra, and in his left he twirled a metal phurba, projecting countless wrathful and ferocious emanations identical to himself."

So, I would like a source for the "story" that the tiger (male?) is Ati Muwer, beyond just a repetition of the claim that it is. And hopefully from a terton who discovered a rdo rje gro lod terma.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:00 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:02 pm
Sennin wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:47 pm

It's explained in the text TEACHINGS ON THE PRACTICE OF DORJE TROLOD
Saw that it was already discussed here aboard.
viewtopic.php?t=9816

Herewith i am enough informed about the aspect of D.T. and am happy to know that Drollo is considered something like the essence of Kilaya, what was seen by some here as wrong.
On the thread you linked Malcolm said, " I have also been told, in connection with the Tersar lineage that Drollo is considered something like the essence of Kilaya and when I talked with Shenphen Rinpoche, he confirmed that indeed, all the instructions from Namchag Putri concerning Dzogchen etc., were applicable to Drollo since there is no elaborate set ofseperate teachings on Dzogchen for Drollo."

This is not something I've ever heard from any tersar lama, and I've specifically asked after Malcolm made that claim. Whereas it is true that Dudjom Tersar Drolo does not have extensive dzogchen teachings, and, if you want to practice dzogchen you might have to take teachings from Namchak Putri or wherever, all DT lamas I've ever asked reject the idea that Drolo is "considered something like the essence of Kilaya." Some dedicated DT Phurba and Drolo practitioners I've asked have no idea what Malcolm was actually going on about.

Of course, if there is some kind of textual evidence from the Dudjom Tersar that gro lod is considered anything like this, I would like to see it.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:43 pm
Sennin wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:47 pm
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 pm

Not according to anything I've ever seen. I think Samten Lingpa was clear the tigress (definitely female not male, unlike Bon sky god) is Tashi Chidren, one of the five main consorts of Guru Rinpoche.
Do have a textual source for that claim?
It's explained in the text TEACHINGS ON THE PRACTICE OF DORJE TROLOD
Yes, but I wanted a textual source, not just an oral teaching that contradicts ever other text and oral teaching I've ever read/received.
In the teachings you quote, which I think I listened to online when they were first given, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says, "In the kingdom of Shang Shung, the three most important guardians were called Shang Shung Gonpo Namsum. One of these three was called Ati Muwer and was extremely powerful. When Guru Padmasambhava arrived in Tibet and started to spread Vajrayana teaching, Ati Muwer wanted to destroy him. So he manifested as a gigantic tiger and attacked Guru Padmasambhava. But Guru Padmasambhava jumped on the tiger's back and manifested as Dorje Trolod. From then on Ati Muwer became the seat of Dorje Trolod. This is the story."

A textual source would explain where this was written and what terma this account comes from. There are a few problems with the story. Most obviously, the sex of the tiger. In every terma I've ever seen, the tiger is female. The Tigress is not some male guardian that's creating problems and is subjugated (the riding being a sign of the subjugation) but the consort or yum of rDo rje Gro lod, blissfully flying through space. The other issue concerns Ati Muwer. The Ati Muwer found in Bon as far as i've seen is nothing like a wrathful guardian local spirit. He's a peaceful lama, lineage originator figure.

That's why a textual source and something carrying a bit more weight, like the account of a terton who found a rdo rje gro lod related terma would be useful. Samten Lingpa discovered a number of termas including a namthar of Dorje Drolo and a namthar of Yeshe Tsogyal. In his Tsogyal namthar he says,
"That same evening, inconceivable signs occurred. The Guru arose as Dorje Drolo (united with Tsogyal in the form of Ekadzati and with Khyidren transformed into the tigress). He subjugated Tibet and its four surrounding regions, along with all the gods and spirits of a million universes. Riding upon the tigress, into which the girl Khyidren had been transformed, the Guru in union with Yeshe Tsogyal remained absorbed in the samadhi of Vajrakila. He was brandishing in his right hand a nine-pointed vajra, and in his left he twirled a metal phurba, projecting countless wrathful and ferocious emanations identical to himself."

So, I would like a source for the "story" that the tiger (male?) is Ati Muwer, beyond just a repetition of the claim that it is. And hopefully from a terton who discovered a rdo rje gro lod terma.
OK so, a couple things:

In the world of Vajrayana, where quite a lot of amazing stories are told, of various things happening, either demons manifesting as this or that or Buddhas manifesting as this or that, with all kinds of miracles, and so on and so forth, the one big hiccup you have - of all the fantastic things told - is that an apparently male being named Ati Muwer manifested as a female tigress in heat? And, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu never said anything about a male tiger, it was always a female tigress, so why do you automatically assume the tiger is male and not female?

Seriously? Why not complain that it's impossible that Pehar manifested as a gigantic scorpion, because according to biology, scorpions don't get that large? Why is it not possible for there to be a female manifestation from a male manifestation? And as for Ati Muwer being presented in Bon as being peaceful, why not? The explanation here from Dorje Drollo is not from Bon, but from Vajrayana.

Another thing, seeing as you discount Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is that he was regarded as the rebirth of Adzom Drugpa, a terton. Who discovered a Dorje Drollo cycle. So technically Chogyal Namkhai Norbu did discover a Dorje Drollo cycle, just not in this life, but in his previous life.

Unfortunately Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has manifested his passing, which means I or others cannot ask him about the source for the Ati Muwer bit, but even if Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was still here, if I had some pressing matter to ask him, this would not be it. At least not via email. Perhaps if we had a long casual lunch together in Dzamling Gar or something like that. But even then there's a number of things I can think of that I'd ask him before this.

In Vajrayana there are very often two or more different stories for the same thing. Either slight variances or rather big ones, and the different sources are all just as trustworthy. That should tell you something about the limitations of dualistic vision in itself.

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:52 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:00 pm
all DT lamas I've ever asked reject the idea that Drolo is "considered something like the essence of Kilaya." Some dedicated DT Phurba and Drolo practitioners I've asked have no idea what Malcolm was actually going on about.
According to the DT Drollo chronicle, while at Paro Taktsang, Guru Rinpoche manifested the vajrakhrodasamadhi, the samadhi of vajra wrath, out of which he arose in the form of Dorje Drollo. If you examine any Kilaya sadhana, you will discover a line that says, "Vajra wrath severs hatred" or something of this nature. The source of this idea of mine is the late Yeshe Phunstog, an American who was a very close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche, and Gyatrul Rinpoche's right hand man for many years. His main practice was Dudjom Drollo. He informed me of this on the occasion Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje's bestowal of the Dudjom Drollo in Boston, Ma., 1992, when asked, Ngakpa Rinpoche confirmed this. "Gro bo lod" is a corruption of krodhalokottāra, which is why the main sadhana of Dorje Drollo in the DT begins with "Namo mahāguru vajra krodhalokottāraye."

Now, then, I know what Shenphen Rinpoche told me, and I know what Ngakpa RInpoche said, and I know what Yeshe Phuntsog said. I don't know, nor do I much care, what other Lamas say. You are free, of course, to follow anyone's opinion you find more credible than mine.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sennin
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Sennin » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:16 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:43 pm
Sennin wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:47 pm
michaelb wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:11 pm

Not according to anything I've ever seen. I think Samten Lingpa was clear the tigress (definitely female not male, unlike Bon sky god) is Tashi Chidren, one of the five main consorts of Guru Rinpoche.
Do have a textual source for that claim?
It's explained in the text TEACHINGS ON THE PRACTICE OF DORJE TROLOD
...So, I would like a source for the "story" that the tiger (male?) is Ati Muwer, beyond just a repetition of the claim that it is. And hopefully from a terton who discovered a rdo rje gro lod terma.
Oh I see, sorry I can't help you any further. Peace.
Namo Guru Bhyaḥ

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:21 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 pm
OK so, a couple things:

In the world of Vajrayana, where quite a lot of amazing stories are told, of various things happening, either demons manifesting as this or that or Buddhas manifesting as this or that, with all kinds of miracles, and so on and so forth, the one big hiccup you have - of all the fantastic things told - is that an apparently male being named Ati Muwer manifested as a female tigress in heat? And, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu never said anything about a male tiger, it was always a female tigress, so why do you automatically assume the tiger is male and not female?

Seriously? Why not complain that it's impossible that Pehar manifested as a gigantic scorpion, because according to biology, scorpions don't get that large? Why is it not possible for there to be a female manifestation from a male manifestation? And as for Ati Muwer being presented in Bon as being peaceful, why not? The explanation here from Dorje Drollo is not from Bon, but from Vajrayana.

Another thing, seeing as you discount Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is that he was regarded as the rebirth of Adzom Drugpa, a terton. Who discovered a Dorje Drollo cycle. So technically Chogyal Namkhai Norbu did discover a Dorje Drollo cycle, just not in this life, but in his previous life.

Unfortunately Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has manifested his passing, which means I or others cannot ask him about the source for the Ati Muwer bit, but even if Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was still here, if I had some pressing matter to ask him, this would not be it. At least not via email. Perhaps if we had a long casual lunch together in Dzamling Gar or something like that. But even then there's a number of things I can think of that I'd ask him before this.

In Vajrayana there are very often two or more different stories for the same thing. Either slight variances or rather big ones, and the different sources are all just as trustworthy. That should tell you something about the limitations of dualistic vision in itself.
sorry. I was just interested in finding a textual source for the rather unique claim. Are you saying Adzom Drukpa's terma is a source because I've not seen that bit.
Regarding another characteristic that you mention, the tigress is most often described as pregnant rather than "in heat."
Sorry if I've offended anyone. I don't come here often but i think clarity is important and often things about deities are conveyed as if they are the accepted view whereas they are actually either total mistranslations (diamond guts, hanging belly, etc.) or very uncommonly held views held by a very small number of lamas. I'm not opposed to a multiplicity of views or interpretations but it's weird if idiosyncratic ideas like Ati Muwer being the tigress is the only view presented here rather than it being explained as the uncommon story it is.
So, to clarify, in most teachings I've received or read regarding Drollo his name has nothing to do with stomachs, he's not the essence of Vajrakilaya, the tigress is Tashi Khyidren, and she is pregnant. All the other versions you see presented as the only truth, like the Ati Muwer claim above, are uncommon but add to the colour of the mythos.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:52 pm
michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:00 pm
all DT lamas I've ever asked reject the idea that Drolo is "considered something like the essence of Kilaya." Some dedicated DT Phurba and Drolo practitioners I've asked have no idea what Malcolm was actually going on about.
According to the DT Drollo chronicle, while at Paro Taktsang, Guru Rinpoche manifested the vajrakhrodasamadhi, the samadhi of vajra wrath, out of which he arose in the form of Dorje Drollo. If you examine any Kilaya sadhana, you will discover a line that says, "Vajra wrath severs hatred" or something of this nature. The source of this idea of mine is the late Yeshe Phunstog, an American who was a very close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche, and Gyatrul Rinpoche's right hand man for many years. His main practice was Dudjom Drollo. He informed me of this on the occasion Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje's bestowal of the Dudjom Drollo in Boston, Ma., 1992, when asked, Ngakpa Rinpoche confirmed this. "Gro bo lod" is a corruption of krodhalokottāra, which is why the main sadhana of Dorje Drollo in the DT begins with "Namo mahāguru vajra krodhalokottāraye."

Now, then, I know what Shenphen Rinpoche told me, and I know what Ngakpa RInpoche said, and I know what Yeshe Phuntsog said. I don't know, nor do I much care, what other Lamas say. You are free, of course, to follow anyone's opinion you find more credible than mine.
Not sure I follow. So because Drolo is Vajra Khroda Lokottara this connects him with Vajrakilaya because of རྡོ་རྗེ་ཁྲོ་བོས་ཞེ་སྡང་གཅོད?
Could you give me a page reference for the Paro Taktsang bit?

I don't have a problem with people having different ideas, but things become problematic when quite obscure ideas are presented as The Truth
rather than the rather uncommon ideas that they are.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:43 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:21 pm
sorry. I was just interested in finding a textual source for the rather unique claim. Are you saying Adzom Drukpa's terma is a source because I've not seen that bit.
I don't know if the source is from his cycle, it's large, and I don't read Tibetan. ChNN did not mention what the source was. So I don't know.
Regarding another characteristic that you mention, the tigress is most often described as pregnant rather than "in heat."
Like I said at the end of my last post, there's often different statements about the same thing. In this case the tigress is described as being in her first heat:

1. viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8851#p117308
2. viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8851&start=20#p117617

Now I don't know about tigers, but I know about cats, having owned a few since I was a kid. And a female cat having her first heat is a god damn nightmare. They are completely crazy. I can only imagine it being worse with a tiger.

Then, just to add, you can see pemachophel say the following in the same thread cited above: "However, I also think I have heard that the tigress was a Bon deity (possibly from Lama Dawa Chodak). Seems like there are different versions of the explanation of Dorje Drolo's tigress mount."

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:47 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:21 pm
=
Regarding another characteristic that you mention, the tigress is most often described as pregnant rather than "in heat."
This is not correct, actually Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, a terton and another direct disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche made it very clear that not only was the tigress in heat, it was in its first heat. Not only this, but in 1992, I separately heard this from Bakha Tulku.

but it's weird if idiosyncratic ideas like Ati Muwer being the tigress is the only view presented here rather than it being explained as the uncommon story it is.
It is not weird at all. It just does not correspond to other traditions you heard. The first time I heard the Ati Muwer identification was in 1992, personally, not in a teaching, from ChNN when I showed him a small image of Drollo which he blessed. You never know with CHNN, it might be something he learned in his dreams. One never knows.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:51 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:36 pm
Not sure I follow. So because Drolo is Vajra Khroda Lokottara this connects him with Vajrakilaya because of རྡོ་རྗེ་ཁྲོ་བོས་ཞེ་སྡང་གཅོད?
Could you give me a page reference for the Paro Taktsang bit?
Yes.

Dudom Rinpoche's collected works, vol 15; ppg. 115-116, beginning on the bottom of 115.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:53 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:43 pm
Seems like there are different versions of the explanation of Dorje Drolo's tigress mount."
No doubt. Here's a discussion from a Bhutanese perspective.

https://somkinga.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -taktsang/

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Norwegian » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:01 pm

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:53 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:43 pm
Seems like there are different versions of the explanation of Dorje Drolo's tigress mount."
No doubt. Here's a discussion from a Bhutanese perspective.

https://somkinga.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -taktsang/
Recall in many instances there are presentations of a single topic from the aspect of outer, inner, secret, innermost secret, etc, or from other contexts. And sometimes these things vary (just look at the differences of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana). It is for that reason I am saying that to approach these things from the viewpoint of mere dualistic vision can produce some very problematic situations, if one allows it to go too far.

Of course if something is straight out wrong and inaccurate, then that is to be discarded, like faulty translations or what have you not. But if the source is a realized master and terton, like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Dudjom Rinpoche, Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche, and so on, then it's worth considering, even if it may seem to be contradictory...

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:47 pm
You never know with CHNN, it might be something he learned in his dreams. One never knows.
True. And I'm not opposed to a multiplicity of ideas, just as long as these ideas and stories are presented as one of a number rather than the only account.
Dudom Rinpoche's collected works, vol 15; ppg. 115-116, beginning on the bottom of 115.
thanks.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:05 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:01 pm
Of course if something is straight out wrong and inaccurate, then that is to be discarded, like faulty translations or what have you not. But if the source is a realized master and terton, like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Dudjom Rinpoche, Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche, and so on, then it's worth considering, even if it may seem to be contradictory...
Sure. I agree.

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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by lelopa » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:48 am

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:21 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:20 pm
OK so, a couple things:

In the world of Vajrayana, where quite a lot of amazing stories are told, of various things happening, either demons manifesting as this or that or Buddhas manifesting as this or that, with all kinds of miracles, and so on and so forth, the one big hiccup you have - of all the fantastic things told - is that an apparently male being named Ati Muwer manifested as a female tigress in heat? And, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu never said anything about a male tiger, it was always a female tigress, so why do you automatically assume the tiger is male and not female?

Seriously? Why not complain that it's impossible that Pehar manifested as a gigantic scorpion, because according to biology, scorpions don't get that large? Why is it not possible for there to be a female manifestation from a male manifestation? And as for Ati Muwer being presented in Bon as being peaceful, why not? The explanation here from Dorje Drollo is not from Bon, but from Vajrayana.

Another thing, seeing as you discount Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is that he was regarded as the rebirth of Adzom Drugpa, a terton. Who discovered a Dorje Drollo cycle. So technically Chogyal Namkhai Norbu did discover a Dorje Drollo cycle, just not in this life, but in his previous life.

Unfortunately Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has manifested his passing, which means I or others cannot ask him about the source for the Ati Muwer bit, but even if Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was still here, if I had some pressing matter to ask him, this would not be it. At least not via email. Perhaps if we had a long casual lunch together in Dzamling Gar or something like that. But even then there's a number of things I can think of that I'd ask him before this.

In Vajrayana there are very often two or more different stories for the same thing. Either slight variances or rather big ones, and the different sources are all just as trustworthy. That should tell you something about the limitations of dualistic vision in itself.
sorry. I was just interested in finding a textual source for the rather unique claim. Are you saying Adzom Drukpa's terma is a source because I've not seen that bit.
Regarding another characteristic that you mention, the tigress is most often described as pregnant rather than "in heat."
Sorry if I've offended anyone. I don't come here often but i think clarity is important and often things about deities are conveyed as if they are the accepted view whereas they are actually either total mistranslations (diamond guts, hanging belly, etc.) or very uncommonly held views held by a very small number of lamas. I'm not opposed to a multiplicity of views or interpretations but it's weird if idiosyncratic ideas like Ati Muwer being the tigress is the only view presented here rather than it being explained as the uncommon story it is.
So, to clarify, in most teachings I've received or read regarding Drollo his name has nothing to do with stomachs, he's not the essence of Vajrakilaya, the tigress is Tashi Khyidren, and she is pregnant. All the other versions you see presented as the only truth, like the Ati Muwer claim above, are uncommon but add to the colour of the mythos.


In jatson Nyingpos terma the tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal... I've read in another terma (do not remember which)it is Shakyadevi
Ait Muwer is also mentioned as tigress in...???....
I think it was Dudjom Lingpa's terma - not only in Adzom Drugpa's
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:08 am

michaelb wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:53 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:43 pm
Seems like there are different versions of the explanation of Dorje Drolo's tigress mount."
No doubt. Here's a discussion from a Bhutanese perspective.

https://somkinga.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... -taktsang/
Tashi delek,

Yeh , i see it are all different interpretations about that tigress and that makes the stories of Guru Rinpoche riding on that tigress like a myth.
The tigress would also be pregnant in some stories......
That is also confirmed by Samten G. Karmay.
Therefore in Bön we see many of those epic stories as not valid.


The 3 principal spiritual aspects of Gekhod Meri

1. The tutelary wisdom deity Atimuwer (a-ti mu-wer ye-shes yi-dam lha) is depicted as sitting in the sky above the various heads of the mountainous figure of Gekhöd-Meri and the soaring Garuda. He is peaceful in aspect, white in color, sitting in meditation posture, and attired as a great prince in rich silks and costly jewels. Even though he has all the symbolic ornaments of the Sambhogakaya, nevertheless, he is said to represent the Dharmakaya manifestation of Gekhöd-Meri. His visualization is generated from sounding the white seed-syllable A.

This Bön Deity is still present in Bön rituals or is this deity a Dharmapala in Nyingma and elsewhere maybe?
The best meditation is no meditation

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Mantrik
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by Mantrik » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:41 am

As a simple soul if I am using a sadhana I use the descriptions associated with it as transmitted by the Guru. That is always the 'right' description.

Different Drolo sadhanas from different termas, different visualisations............can't see a problem.
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michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:42 am

lelopa wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:48 am
In jatson Nyingpos terma the tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal... I've read in another terma (do not remember which)it is Shakyadevi
Ait Muwer is also mentioned as tigress in...???....
I think it was Dudjom Lingpa's terma - not only in Adzom Drugpa's
If you could give me a reference for either Dudjom Lingpa or Adzom Drukpa, that would be great. Thanks.

michaelb
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Re: Guru Rinpoche As...

Post by michaelb » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:41 am
As a simple soul if I am using a sadhana I use the descriptions associated with it as transmitted by the Guru. That is always the 'right' description.

Different Drolo sadhanas from different termas, different visualisations............can't see a problem.
:smile:
Fair enough. I like to understand the context around these things, though.

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